What's the difference between E66 and 12-5 pickups?

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

Don't get too technical on answering this please. What are the differences between George L's E-66 and 12-5 pickups? What are some of the pro's and con's of each? Why might one be better than the other? I'm waiting on my GFI U-12 to be built, it comes standard with an E-66, and am wondering if I should consider a 12-5 pickup instead. Maybe the differences are so subtle I won't notice??

-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Todd Brown · From: W. Columbia , South Carolina

Just wondering the difference in these pickups . the pf2 is 20ohms and the e66 is 17.5ohms what does this mean and what is the difference betwwen a 10 stage and a 12 stage pickup

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

The E66 is built to resemble an Emmons single coil p-u, and is known to be quite bright.

The PF-2 has a fatter sound with more mids. (same as the PF-1 but slightly darker)
I guess it's designed to sound similar to a Bill Lawrence (705?). I believe that's what Paul used before the Gl's.

The 12-5 has a five way swich and five different caracteristics to swich between.
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund

Greg Gefell · From: Upstate NY

I've also heard many people complaining about the switches going on the 10-5 and 12-5 pickups. E66 has no moving parts to worry about.
_________________
https://www.facebook.com/ggefell/

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Let me get this straight, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GUITAR YET, AND YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE PICKUP?!?!

I realize it won't earn me any friends, here. Nevertheless, I have to say it...

I think that's foolish.

Rolling Eyes

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Having had both, I would say I'm not a fan of the 12-5, although it certainly is use-able.
It sounded like a great idea, having 5 tones to select from, but I didn't really feel any of the 5 tones were strong contenders for the "wow, that sounds absolutely killer" tonal descriptor.

I think they are both affordable and re-sell-able enough that you could/should try both, as "tone" lies in the ears of the be-hearer, as they say.
pb

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

Donny, it is true I do not even have the guitar at this point. However, let me point out that I don't necessarily want to change it, I recently discovered that other George L pickups were available, and I chose to not be a total idiot and ask the question in here so you more knowledgeable guys could provide meaningful advice and explain the difference between the different pickups. I didn't expect ridicule, I expected advice and reasurrance from others that maybe the one in it that is standard, is certainly adequate, and worth using for a while before making such major changes.
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Ron ! · Posted 16 Sep 2008 8:49 am

I don't think that Donny is ridiculing you here Chuck.I too think that the best thing you can do is try the E-66 out for a while before you start changing the pick-up.
Many people on the forum change pick ups because they don't like the tone of their guitar compared to other players(who happen to play the same guitar).
Right there the subject "Is Tone In The Hands" comes afloat.
Your new guitar will be sounding very very good with a George L pick-up.
Gene builds a very good guitar and he puts the best sounding pick-up on that specific model.

But I have to agree with Donny on this.....try it first and then decide whether you want to change or not.
And remember.....the grass is always greener on the other side.(and that is exactly what other players will think about your sound).
What you think won't sound good will sound like a monster sound to other people.

Ron

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I have a 12-5 in the green guitar shown in my avatar.

In my opinion 4 of the 5 positions sound almost identical. I cannot distinguish any difference in tone between the 2 humbucking positions, and the 2 single coil positions sound exactly the same except that they produce less volume and they hum.

The 5th position, in which (I'm guessing the coils out of phase with each other) does produce a different and unique tone. I like this sound have used this a lot on my recordings, (Especially on the new one.)

I feel that my guitar with this pickup has only 2 usable sounds. Maybe the other positions sound more distinctive on other guitars. I'm happy with the 2 I've got, but I think the other settings are a waste.

BTW, I have no problems with the switch.

P.S. Since my Millennium (with its modular pickup system) is not set up to accept a 12-5, some day I'm going to ask the George L to make me a pickup what I think is with the out of phase sound.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

Ok, I suppose I should have phrased my question a little different. Yes I am waiting for a new guitar, that I do not doubt will blow me away once I get to hear it. And I have no reason to believe the E-66 pickup on it will not sound good. I did just recently discover the 12-5 pickup on the George L website. Although the E-66 description there states the E-66 was designed with the assistance of Buddy Emmons to attempt to emulate the '66 Emmons PP, the description for the 12-5 was not as descriptive. I could not help but wonder which one might be more advantageous to have. So, to net things out, I was looking for explanations from the heavyweights on here as to what were the basic differences in tone (and I realize that is subjective), along with pros and cons for each. And in addition some advice on whether it would be advisable to change from the standard pickup. I'm merely wanting to get the most for my money, and as a novice at this, I don't know the difference between the two pickups. I don't feel my question was necessariyl a stupid one to ask, since the guitar is still being built, if something needed changed to get the most bang for my buck, now is the time to do so. At this point, now that I know slightly more than I did, I'm happy with not changing anything, but you guys could have been a little easier on the beaver.
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Not to hijack the thread, but this is why I think all steels should have MSA or Sierra style modular pickup systems. (And I wish that the 2 were compatible.)

Not so that we can all have a lot of different pickups, but so that we can all try a lot of different pickups and see which we like best.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

Mike, thanks for your explanation!! That is exactly the sort of info I was looking for.
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Chuck, bear in mind that my MSA and your GFI are VERY different, with inherently different tones that are related to the way they are built, and that the sounds of the different positions in the 12-5 pickup might be much more pronounced in the GFI.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

I understand, and as I said, talking about tone or what something sounds like is very subjective. However, your explanation told me quite a lot about the 12-5 which I didn't know before. Basically the 12-5 allows for switching between humbucker and single pole modes.
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Chuck, sorry. It's not so much ridicule as it is surprise. You see, you're not alone, and many players have inquired here about swapping pickups...on steels they don't even have yet.

It just never ceases to amaze me, that's all. I guess it's a human condition type of thing - players will take other players' word about what sounds best on a certain guitar over the guy who builds the durn thing.

I guess I'm just a strange individual. If Buddy Emmons himself told me a certain pickup would be better on my guitar, I'd still have to try the one the builder (or previous owner) selected, first.

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

My Sho-Bud s-12 had a George L's 12-5 pickup in it when I bought it. I found at least 3 of the sound variations useful to have. I liked the full humbucking, tapped humbucking, and full single coil sounds of the pickup and the ability to switch between said sounds.

I thought the pickup was somewhat lacking in what I can only call "character", but after changing to a Lawrence 712 I feel that perhaps the guitar itself is lacking in that elusive "character", so I guess the pickup wasn't all that bad.

If you are interested it the capability to change sounds in this way on your new steel, then the 12-5 might be the way to go.

I haven't personally tried an E-66, so can't offer any direct comparison.

Ulf Edlund · From: Umeå, Sweden

Give the man a break Donny. He's just asking what pickup to order with his new guitar.

If Gene thinks an E66 is a good choise it probably is,
but doesn't GFI come with GFI II or III p-ups?
Is it 'cause it's 12-stringer?
_________________
1983 Emmons D10 SKH, Carter SD10, Nashville 112, Session 500, ProfexII, Lapsteels, GT-Beard reso, guitars of all kinds...
http://www.myspace.com/ulfedlund

John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

FWIW I wish I could have specified what pickups were installed in my new Gibson ES339. It would have saved me the trouble and expense of changing them out now.

And Donny - technically it's not a pickup swap if the guitar is still being built, just a pickup selection.

Ron ! · Posted 16 Sep 2008 11:08 am

Chuck Snider R.I.P. · From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV

Donny, thanks for your clarification. Sorry I wasn't more clear initially, that would likely have minized our churn in this discussion. I actually very much agree with your last comments. I do tend to have blind trust in the manufacturer using the proper materials, and in the case of GFI, I've seen and heard nothing but good comments. In this case I didn't know enough about the available options. I appreciate your honesty and your assistance.

-Chuck
_________________
GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i think donny was totally out of line...just as everyone implies that i am out of line when i don't get it that people buying new or used steels are having them sent to modder/rebuilder/tweaker/improvers before the new owner has even touched the instrument. i sense a bit of falling for peer pressure to be cool before assessing something first with your own perception.

Ron ! · Posted 16 Sep 2008 11:49 am

Let's get back to the question in this topic.
George L's E-66 and 12-5 pickups

Chucks question was about the difference in these 2 pick-ups.It was not a question about Donny or whether Donny was impolite or not.

Chuck rephrased his question to be more clear (Thanks for that Chuck) and let's all be of some assistance to him.

I prefer the E-66 more then anything else.I like the tone of the E-66 because of the fact that it has a more "thiny" sound to it.
Buddy did a tremendous job when this pick-up was designed.

My opinion to all this is that you have to try them all out before making a switch to a specific brand or type.
I have to agree with Mike on this one when it comes to the MSA and Sierra system....perfect system to exchange a pick-up.

Ron

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I'm no heavy-weight, but I have a Sierra modular pick-up system and have tried all the commercially available 12-string pick-ups on the market (at some time over the last 10 years).
Honestly, the 12-5 is the last pickup I would reccomend (none of its 5 sounds sounded as good [to me] as any of the other HB or SC pickups I've tried), but with that said, and as i said before, these things are inexpensive, and easily re-sellable.

Whatever you do...
DO NOT DRILL A HOLE IN THE DECK OF YOUR STEEL FOR THE 5-POSITION SWITCH!!!

When I used a 12-5 in my Sierra, I mounted the switch in a small black "project box" from Radio Shack (Mike P., this would work for your MSA modular).
Yeah, you have a cord hanging out of your pickup, and the cord to your amp plugs into the project box, but you don't have a hole in the deck of your steel!!!

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Also, a small standoff or plate can be mounted to the underside of the cabinet where there's room.
The 12-5 actually has 6 tonal variations, not 5....don't know why it's called a 12-5....should be 12-6!!!
In full-humbucking mode, the 12-string p/u has 19,500 ohms. That is the 'quietest' mode. IMO the 12-5 gives a 'spectrum' of sound possibilities where the E-66 locks you into one. I have 12-5's on four of my guitars and enjoy the selectivity available. The E-66's do seem a bit 'hotter' or 'edgier' than a 12-5 in all of its modes. But there are so many other factors that enter the equation---
1)How roughly or gently do you pick the strings?
2)Where do play on the neck? Way up? Over the changer or p/u?
3)Do you use thin or heavy picks?
4)What brand of strings do you use?
5)How often do you change them?
6)Metal neck or wood neck?
7)Do you play a guitar with a metal neck rather than a wooden one?
8)Do you play with your volume pedal 'mostly off' or 'mostly on'?
9)What type of cables do you use?
10)What kind of amp do you use?
11)What effects do you use?
12)Do you play in places with carpeted floors or cement floors?
13)Do you set your amp bright or mellow...or 'subdued'?
14)Does your amp sit on the floor or on a rack up off the floor a bit?
15)Do you tilt your amp upward in any way?
16)What size bar do you use and how much pressure do you put on it while playing....light or heavy?
17)Do you dampen the strings behind the bar?
18)Are you a 'big chord' player or a 'chicken-picker'?
These are some of the factors that determine what a guitar will sound like in the final analysis. You guys are right in saying that tone is as you perceive it. If you're content with your sound, who's to make a judgment call?
I'd go with the E-66 as installed by Gene and Bob and see how it shakes out from there. With my limited experience with the E-66's, I'd guess you'll be pretty pleased with it. With a LOT of experience under my belt (for almost 25 years) with George L's pickups, I'd say you couldn't hardly go wrong with ANY of the pickups he makes.
Yes, Buddy and George spent many a long, weary day for days on end developing the E-66. That was George's first real departure from his standard 12-5's and 10-5's of the day.
PRR

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Also, a small standoff or plate can be mounted to the underside of the cabinet where there's room.
The 12-5 actually has 6 tonal variations, not 5....don't know why it's called a 12-5....should be 12-6!!!
In full-humbucking mode, the 12-string p/u has 19,500 ohms. That is the 'quietest' mode. IMO the 12-5 gives a 'spectrum' of sound possibilities where the E-66 locks you into one. I have 12-5's on four of my guitars and enjoy the selectivity available. The E-66's do seem a bit 'hotter' or 'edgier' than a 12-5 in all of its modes. But there are so many other factors that enter the equation---
1)How roughly or gently do you pick the strings?
2)Where do play on the neck? Way up? Over the changer or p/u?
3)Do you use thin or heavy picks?
4)What brand of strings do you use?
5)How often do you change them?
6)Metal neck or wood neck?
7)Do you play a guitar with a metal body rather than a wooden one?
8)Do you play with your volume pedal 'mostly off' or 'mostly on'?
9)What type of cables do you use?
10)What kind of amp do you use?
11)What effects do you use?
12)Do you play in places with carpeted floors or cement floors?
13)Do you set your amp bright or mellow...or 'subdued'?
14)Does your amp sit on the floor or on a rack up off the floor a bit?
15)Do you tilt your amp upward in any way?
16)What size bar do you use and how much pressure do you put on it while playing....light or heavy?
17)Do you dampen the strings behind the bar?
18)Are you a 'big chord' player or a 'chicken-picker'?
These are some of the factors that determine what a guitar will sound like in the final analysis. You guys are right in saying that tone is as you perceive it. If you're content with your sound, who's to make a judgment call?
I'd go with the E-66 as installed by Gene and Bob and see how it shakes out from there. With my limited experience with the E-66's, I'd guess you'll be pretty pleased with it. With a LOT of experience under my belt (for almost 25 years) with George L's pickups, I'd say you couldn't hardly go wrong with ANY of the pickups he makes.
Yes, Buddy and George spent many a long, weary day for days on end developing the E-66. That was George's first real departure from his standard 12-5's and 10-5's of the day.
PRR

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic