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Topic: Do you use Chromatic Strings on your steel |
Curtis G. Greene
From:
Eure, North Carolina
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 6:54 am |
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| How many Chromatic strings do you use on your steel? |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 7:23 am
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 8:24 am
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The E9th "Chromatic" Tuning, which is what most use, has two "chromatic" strings.
A little more clarification on what you are asking would help. e.g. are you talking about buying strings for a Pedal steel? or are you asking how to tune a guitar?, etc.. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 8:28 am
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Mine is different than most as my 2nd string is C# instead of D# as is Weldon Myrick's and also the late Hal Rugg. The late Jimmy Crawford used a D in the second slot and I think Terry Bethel does too....JH in Va.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 8:35 am
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I use all of the strings on my steel.
On the E9th, the term "chromatic strings" refers to the first two strings. It's not technically accurate; it's historical. I think it originated as people were switching from 8 strings to 10 in the early 1960's. "E9th Chromatic" emphasized the addition of the two high, out-of-sequence strings.
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 8:41 am
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I wonder...using those guidelines, could one also consider the C6th tuning with a "D" on top as a "chromatic" tuning? 
Seems logical to me. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 8:43 am
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| Donny, seems logical to me also as it'd be the same thing as the F# string on E9.......JH in Va. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 8:56 am
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Technically, "chromatic" means that it contains all of the notes of the 12-tone chromatic scale. The C6th is misnamed as well - it's actually Fmaj9. We call it C6th for historical reasons.
All versatile pedal steel copedents are chromatic in the sense that you can get all 12 notes by using pedals and knee levers. The use of the word to refer to the top, out-of-order strings is unique to the steel guitar lexicon. Someone should tell Webster! 
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Jack Mattison
From:
North Bend, Wa
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 9:51 am chromatic
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b0b....... Your way over my head with all that thory. I'm too old to start learnig all that "stuff". I am just going to just play the "beast"  |
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Jim Robbins
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 10:10 am
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Does that make the E9 really a Bm sus b11 13?
For anyone who's interested, tunings like the E9 with strings 'out of order' are known as "re-entrant" tunings.
When replying, please remember this is a family forum. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 10:33 am Suposition
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Why would one expect rational names for tunings, strings, etc. from a bunch of steel (or guitar) players? Theory posts get generally demeaned, technical issues get flamed, mathematical explanations appear to offend, etc.
Any tuning structure can be spelled in terms of any note present in the tuning or not. It can be in terms of a single octave, or of two octaves.
If one F# in the "E9" tuning is a 9, what is the other F# in the other octave?
Why stop at FM9 re "C6"...what is the next A, the next C...why not Dmxxx sans root?
Remember the "E13" tuning...how does one rationalize that name/label?
There is about as much truth/accuracy in tuning names, and picker terminology as in school history books. |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 12:10 pm Re.
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| b0b wrote: |
Technically, "chromatic" means that it contains all of the notes of the 12-tone chromatic scale. The C6th is misnamed as well - it's actually Fmaj9. We call it C6th for historical reasons.
All versatile pedal steel copedents are chromatic in the sense that you can get all 12 notes by using pedals and knee levers. The use of the word to refer to the top, out-of-order strings is unique to the steel guitar lexicon. Someone should tell Webster! |
b0b Imho you nailed it.I have always wondered why the E9th is called a chromatic tuning which it is not.I agree with you.Technically as you pointed out it is E major 7th with a added 9th. Tracy |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 12:19 pm
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I agree with Ed - and I'm irritated when people seem to take pride in their lack of knowledge of such things. What's all THAT about!!? We can all gain a lot by familiarising ourselves with more advanced theory. It's certainly not impossible to play well without it, but how much more satisfying it is to grasp the principals behind good music!
b0b - I suppose your 'historical' reference is correct, and early 6 and 8-string steels certainly were a pure C6th tuning. Whoever put that 'F' string at #9 turned it into an Fmaj9th tuning, though.
I admit that I always qualify my explanation of the E9 tuning when answering questions from other musicians who are unfamiliar with PSG; some of the sharper-eared amongst them have said - 'It's not really an E9th, then, is it?'
I say "No - but that's what we call it...." 
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 3:42 pm
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I don't face that problem. I tune my 2nd string to D, so mine really is an E9th!  |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 4:08 pm
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"Technically as you pointed out it is E major 7th with a added 9th. Tracy"
Not really, Tracy - there's no b7 in the major 7 chord..... but we're getting closer!
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 4:39 pm
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
"Technically as you pointed out it is E major 7th with a added 9th. Tracy"
Not really, Tracy - there's no b7 in the major 7 chord..... but we're getting closer! |
I think the term chromatic was used because the tuning has both a b7 and natural 7th, so it's not a diatonic tuning like C6th (FMaj9th).
Bob's right though, it is a misnomer. A chromatic scale would have to include all 12 semitones. I guess with enough knee levers and/or split tuning ability, one could get all the requisite notes in the open position to correctly call the E9th tuning, chromatic. |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 6:43 pm
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| I always kinda figured that learning what to do with strings 1,2,7, & 9 meant I was learning something valuable. |
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Moon in Alaska
From:
Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 6:46 pm
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I use the first and second strings a lot on E9th. The first few years of hearing of them, we called them the "wild strings", as you could not include them in a strum...
I use the first F# the most. I also have a knee that raises the 4th up to F#. I use this knee with the A/B pedals for almost all of the C pedal work, the only exception is I like the B/C pedal for those really quick moves...
I probably use lower the E's knee for the D# note
80 % of the time therefore I don't use the second string a lot.
I think we can get some sounds using these strings which was inpossible in the old days...
Moon
_________________
<<Moon>>
==Carter S-10==
1962 Fender 400
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html |
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Tracy Sheehan
From:
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 10:11 pm Re:
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
"Technically as you pointed out it is E major 7th with a added 9th. Tracy"
Not really, Tracy - there's no b7 in the major 7 chord..... but we're getting closer! |
E flat is the major 7th to the E major chord.
B would be the 5th and D the 7th to the E major chord.
Does get technicall doesn't it? |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Sep 2008 10:37 pm
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At this point, I use all the strings on my E9 neck. I use string 2 a lot - I started out using the E-Eb lever to get the D# much more, but now find string 2 more useful for single-string melodies.
On the naming convention - except for the maj7 (D#) on string 2, all the notes are in the scale making up the E9 chord, which is E mixolydian. In that sense, string 2 is a note which is chromatic to the scale the E9 chord is constructed from. So I think the name "E9 chromatic" makes perfect sense.
Of course, one could look at it any one of several other ways, including referencing the notes to the E Ionian scale, yielding an E maj9 with the chromatic note being the 9th string D - or "E maj9 chromatic".
Not that wikipedia is authoritative - but this all fits with music theoretic notions I've heard about how a "chromatic chord" is defined - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromaticism#Chromatic_chord |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2008 9:45 am
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For a while I had a guitar that didn't have a 4th string lower. I got real comfortable using the 2nd string to get that note. It improved my "gut level" understanding of the E9th quite a bit.
We all know that it's the same note as the 4th string lower, but I didn't really know it until I played without the lower for a while.
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 14 Sep 2008 12:03 pm
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As for the original question, yes, I use the "chromatic strings" a lot, probably too much. Sometimes I hear older players playing the same melody or phrase I am playing, but sliding up and down the neck with moving harmony more, and it sounds better than sitting on one fret using the "chromatic strings."
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
On the naming convention - except for the maj7 (D#) on string 2, all the notes are in the scale making up the E9 chord, which is E mixolydian. In that sense, string 2 is a note which is chromatic to the scale the E9 chord is constructed from. So I think the name "E9 chromatic" makes perfect sense.
Of course, one could look at it any one of several other ways, including referencing the notes to the E Ionian scale, yielding an E maj9 with the chromatic note being the 9th string D - or "E maj9 chromatic". |
That reasoning seems strained to me, Dave. 8-string E9 was already a chromatic chord, containing the b7. But nobody called it a chromatic tuning back then. As far as I can tell, people only started calling it a chromatic tuning when they added the D# and F# on strings 1 and 2 (which BE originally had as strings 9 and 10). And those extra two strings were called the chromatic strings, even though they are part of the diatonic E scale.
| Wikipedia wrote: |
Chromatic note
A chromatic note is one which does not belong to the scale of the key prevailing at the time. Similarly, a chromatic chord is one which includes one or more such notes.
A chromatic scale is one which proceeds entirely by semitones, so dividing the octave into twelve equal steps of one semitone each.
[edit] Chromatic chord
A chromatic chord is a musical chord that includes at least one note not belonging in the diatonic scale associated with the prevailing key. In other words, at least one note of the chord is chromatically altered. Any chord that is not chromatic is a diatonic chord. |
Strings 1 and 2 are definitely diatonic notes of the prevailing key, not chromatic notes. Somebody made a terminology mistake that everyone else copied. I guess you could say they used a wrong term for strings 1 and 2 that accidentally turned out to have been the correct term for the tuning prior to adding strings 1 and 2.
Back in the '70s New Grass Revival played a new style of bluegrass using a lot of fast scale runs. Most of them were not chromatic, but everyone started calling the style chromatic banjo. I think both these cases are just part of some non-academic colloquialisms in country music and bluegrass. Likewise many guitarists and steelers say they are temper tuning any time they vary from a meter's straight up ET, when actually the meter is what is tempered and they are detempering. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Sep 2008 1:37 pm
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| Quote: |
| That reasoning seems strained to me, Dave. 8-string E9 was already a chromatic chord, containing the b7. |
To me, my reasoning fits cleanly with the concept of chromaticism as I've always understood it (again from wikipedia, 'cause I'm too lazy to go find a book source right now):
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| In music, chromaticism is a compositional technique interspersing the primary diatonic pitches and chords with other pitches of the chromatic scale. |
The b7 D note is not chromatic to the E9 chord, whose notes are diatonically drawn from the Mixolydian scale (mode), not the Ionian (regular major) scale (mode). Mixolydian is a legitimate diatonic scale - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scales - why not consider the E9 chord relative to that scale? I'm referring to this passage particularly:
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| These (added for clarity: diatonic) scales are the foundation of the European musical tradition. The modern major and minor scales are diatonic, as were all of the 'church' modes. |
If we can agree that this is legitimate, then the maj7 D# note is chromatic to that scale and the E9 chord built from it. So, to me, the nomer "E9 chromatic" seems like a perfectly reasonable interpretation of what's going on with the tuning.
Either way, I don't think this nomenclature matters a lot one way or another - one can take any note in the tuning and base some tuning nomenclature off it. If you insist that chromatic notes must be limited to the notes not contained specifically in the Ionian diatonic scale, then you would be correct. But I don't look at it that way. To me, if you're working primarily in Mixolydian - let's say playing figures with over an E9 chord - and suddenly add a run that ascends from b7 to 7 to 1 to b9 to 9, then the chromatic notes are 7 and b9, not b7 and b9.
| Quote: |
| Back in the '70s New Grass Revival played a new style of bluegrass using a lot of fast scale runs. Most of them were not chromatic, but everyone started calling the style chromatic banjo. |
I hear a lot of truly chromatic notes in "modern" banjo playing. They're not always blip-like passing tones - chromatic runs and dissonance are significant features in the playing.
In a lot of music, truly chromatic notes and outright dissonance are verboten, except as occasional passing tones. To me, it's not the presence of a majority of chromatic notes that defines chromatic music, but the fact that they significantly impact the sound. A little chromaticism can go a long way.
All my opinions, naturally. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 14 Sep 2008 5:23 pm
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I'm sure nobody cares about this but us, Dave, and it's no big thing for us either really. But, the mixolydian argument, while technically correct, seems esoteric and strained to me, and probably doesn't explain why people call strings 1 and 2 of 10-string E9 the "chromatic strings." While it may be possible to get an E9 chord from the mixolydian scale, I'm pretty sure that is not what people at Sho-Bud (or wherever) were thinking when they started calling strings 1 and 2 chromatic. Except for the D string, all the strings and most of the pedal and lever stops of 10-string E9 serve to form the ionian diatonic scale of the key of E. And for that, only the D string is chromatic - none of the others are. And yet they didn't call it a chromatic tuning when it was 8-string E9. They only went to that when they added strings 1 and 2. I suspect they weren't familiar with the term "diatonic," knew they had added some extra scale notes, were familiar with the term "chromatic scale," and so mistakenly used that term, because it sounded impressive.
But who knows? Maybe you are right. Maybe they went to somebody in the music department at Vanderbilt. And maybe the academic told them 8-string E9 was diatonic mixolydian that became chromatic with the addition of the Maj 7 D# on the second string. I just find that hard to believe. |
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