WHAT IS.........the proper technique?

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

During recent weeks, there have been several posts about 'proper use of the bar'........when playing the steel guitar.

Each poster has had an obvious, sincere, interest in sharing their knowledge and expertise on this critical subject.

The reference was made, more than once, that fret markers are merely 'a guide' and only the visual target that a player should 'aim for' during his/her bar placement. That vibrato was 'the averaging out' of something or another to make the out of tune positioning of the bar SOUND BETTER.

For what it's worth, I've been very impressed with the David Hartley series of posts on You Tube. The video's of his playing, (not the flipping of his long-locks or anything else), clearly show the precise placement of his bar.....directly above the fret markers for what can be none other than a most accurate tonal sound. His playing is exceptional for any of you newbies; the video's of his playing could not be more valuable as a visual teaching aid.

All newbies should make this a requirement in their learning process. GREAT VIDEO's!

http://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=Q1anFOEzA

Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

I agree Ray, David's playin is indeed inspirational. Smile

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

You're absolutely right, Ray. David's playing (and his videos) are tremendous. His playing is as in tune and dead on as possible.

I have to disagree with you about the flipping of his long locks, though. Personally, I find that the flipping of David's long locks really helps me with my bar placement. Wink

(I think this is the url you meant to include...the one in your post goes nowhere: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1XanFEYEzA )
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Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

I totally agree with the comments about DH's playing. I've really enjoyed his videos, but, as to bar placement, putting the bar right over the fret doesn't always put you in tune. It varies by guitar, in my experience. I had a guitar where the frets seemed right on, and some that the frets were a little flat/sharp. I don't think that most steel fretboards follow the exact mathematical formula that guitar (or any instrument you actually uses fixed frets to change the string length) fretboards do. I think you have to figure out where your personal guitar is in tune. I've never sat down at someone elses guitar and had it in tune in the same place as mine.

Gabriel

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

Especially in the areas past the 12th fret, it becomes an ear thing, as the frets are obscured or even hidden.

My current #1 has the frets in a mess past the 12th, and there's no point in trying to be exact in that situation, which is not too uncommon with older lap steels.

Judson Bertoch · From: Virginia, USA

Well I was one of those posters asking the question about bar placement, so thank you Ray, for pointing out a great example.

Now if I may pose a question - I often hear of "playing the pocket and not moving up and down the fretboard" to avoid being "choppy" sounding.

I often see what I would consider to be a fair amount of moving up and down the fretboard (this video for example).

I've got not point of reference on the subject, so I'd like to enquire if this is considered "a lot of movment" during a song or is this amount of movement considered "typical?"

JB

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

There is no such thing as "proper" technique, just more efficient and less efficient technique for a particular desired end result. What works for one person may not work for another, though there are a set of commonly accepted practices that tend to work the majority of the time.

A person's techniques change over time as they gain skills. 4 legs - 2 legs - 3 legs type of thing. You don't tell someone at the 4 legs stage to attempt techniques suited to a 3 legs stage. To mix my metaphors even more, beginners need training wheels while Tour de France racers do not.

Pedagogical theory is very involved.
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Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

The height of the strings over the fret board also effects bar placement. One of my lap steels has higher strings and so I have to place the bar at a different spot to be in tune.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I disagree that one must always use the visual of "directly over the fret marker". Even if those markers are perfectly laid out and there is no visual obstruction or parallax, the nature of the pedal steel and the way most players tune it - using just intonation - means that some positions require playing slightly off the marker. Of course, if the fret markers are off or you have visual obstruction or parallax, what's left? IMO, your ears.

The most obvious example for pedal steel is the A+F move when the guitar is tuned justly. In this case, it has been clearly shown numerous times on this forum that the bar should be placed slightly above a perfectly-placed fret marker. How much? Again, the ears dictate. There are no doubt other examples.

Another situation is if, by some chance, the other instruments or singer(s) in a band are slightly sharp or flat to your tuning reference. If you play exactly "in-tune" to your internal reference, you will be out of tune to theirs. OK, it's reasonable to retune it by ear to their reference when you can - but what do you do in the meantime, let's say when you don't have time to do that right before or in the middle of a song?

Of course, good eyes and accurate fret markings are useful to get things close. But I think the ears trump on steel guitar. I was having a devil of a time playing this thing in tune until I realized that - and I still have to work on that as Job 1. YMMV, but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Wink

BTW - I agree on David Hartley's playing. Great stuff, with beautiful intonation.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

After a while (measured in decades) one gets to the point where the machine can be played without looking at it, or, at least, one can get away with looking away for a while whilst still pickin'...

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

With cerebral palsy, I've got a different bar technique. I use a grooved bar, and in order to place the bar on the strings, I put it down on the steel with my right hand, then I move the bar from my right hand by sliding it into my left hand. When I play, my left index finger is kinda curled onto the top of the bar while my thumb is on the strings. My left ring and little fingers kinda curl on the strings. You can see an example of my bar technique if you watch my video on YouTube-Brett Day-Steel Guitar. As far as playing songs go, I use the pedals with the bar stayin' on certain frets and for low notes, the bar stays on the eighth and tenth strings with the A and B pedals down and I can do a little bit of vibrato with the grooved bar.

Brett

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Thanks all for readin' and participating in this post. It's great to see how a variety of players from all over the world and TEXAS too, approach a common task.

Gabriel......I don't know about you, but I've always found that a guitar that is 'out of rig' or whatever one might choose to call it, is a "CHEAP GUITAR". Not 'cheap' price-wise but construction-wise. Life is too short to have to spend all your time on the band stand 'guessing' at where the bar should be.
My Bigsby, Emmons, Fender triple-8 and Ricks have not presented the kind of problems mentioned here and I do have a few years playing professionally.

I've found my OLDE Ricks to be the "easiest guitars" I've ever played and the most accurate.

And Ron: I've never played a great deal ABOVE the 12th fret....but I know that Hughey, Green, Helms and others did and I've never found the kind of problem you mention but of course, you could be right.

Judson: I've heard of playing the pockets and for a lot of single string work it really makes sense; minimal jumping around the neck; keeping it local; improving one's speed.

On the other hand, if you're attempting to play a seamless, melodic phrase and you don't want to hear the abrupt change in musical tone when jumping from a HIGH F# or G, down to a much lower, fatter, WOUND STRING, then jumpting around, up and down the neck, would seem to me to be the desired route to travel. While all of the notes needed might very well present themselves to you 'in a pocket' it might not SOUND RIGHT for the phrase you're playing at the time if one is into that kinda thing. Jerry Byrd was very sensitive to that kind of thing that's why he used the 'special strings' approach.

The Short Brothers recorded "Kentucky" and Jerry took his solo and in one place where you are willing to bet that Jerry has reached his lowest point on the strings AND the neck, he continues on for another three or four notes that sound like he's in the bottom of a deep, deep well. That's seamless technique!

ANDY.........isn't this the situation where one has to look and position the bar by using 'parallex' viewing or whatever? Like in the little old inexpensive cameras? That's when folks would chop off the heads of their subjects since the view finder was in a different parallel position rather than the view one would be seeing 'thro' the lense'?
Isn't that how one has to view the bar positioning as one progresses further left of the 12th fret?

Dave: Cheating all night to 'be in tune' with the rest of the band members is why I've argued against using these confounded electronic tuners. You might be in tune with your $1,000 tuner but is is too much to expect that the other 3 or 4 tuner units varying in cost from $25.00 to a couple hundred dollars, are any where close to being in accurate pitch with the others? For many a years, everyone tuning to "E" from the top down, seemed to give an accurate balance to the band....that seems to be sorely lacking in many of today's groups. Four or Five guys today each tune to their own tuner and if you're playing steel, it's sometimes very difficult to figure out which out of tune band member you're going to try and match your level of pitch...with. Frequently, one goes with the LOUDEST in order to survive.

We always hated to go play somewhere when there was a house piano as it was often anywhere from a half tone sharp or flat to a whole tone or more. After everyone retuned their guitars, there was tuning problems for everyone the remainder of the night. That's why in most cases, everyone tuned to the steel for their common pitch.

Same applied to accordians........

I was just curious how so many of you meet these situations and certainly am NOT attempting to foist my views/practices on anyone else.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Mickey Adams · From: Bandera Texas

I disagree.. If you look at where the need to change tunings has originated, you will understand the need.
Peterson has included in its manuals for the Strobo-Flip tuners, the nature of tuning variations, how they have evolved, and why we playing steel guitar(or any stringed, fretted insrument) need to use them. If you divide equally each interval(in vibrations per second) between any root and its octave, you will find several imperfect intervals. You will also find that between woodwinds, pianos, unfretted instruments, and horns that there needs to be a "middle ground" of perfection. You HAVE to change imperfect intervals...because the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few so to speak..You are equally out of tune overall, but overall, closer to perfection in any given position...
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Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

In all my years of playing steel i never gave it any thought.I would say the fret markings are a reference point only.You have to use your ears.Look how close the notes are on a fiddle and as you get higher on the neck they get even closer.
No put downs meant to any one,but i don't understand how any one could play a steel in tune unless they have a good ear for music.
Horns don't have frets either. Mad

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i rarely check my tuner anymore and i only use fret markers for quick glancing to get to the area i'm aiming for. i do lots of local recording and i seem to be in tune quite consistently. it's an ear thing that you will either develop or not!

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Ray-good post--"
rest of the band members is why I've argued against using these confounded electronic tuners. You might be in tune with your $1,000 tuner but is is too much to expect that the other 3 or 4 tuner units varying in cost from $25.00 to a couple hundred dollars, are any where close to being in accurate pitch with the others? For many a years, everyone tuning to "E" from the top down, seemed to give an accurate balance to the band....that seems to be sorely lacking in many of today's groups."

When I played with my band in Phoenix, I had a Conn Stroboconn Tuner and tuned my guitar with it, then gave it to the Bass Player and lead guitar and made them tune to it. so we were all ok on one tuner.It worked pretty good and stopped arguments over who was in or out of tune..

However your mention of everyone tuning to E from top down, gave a good balnce , as you say, and worked pretty good in the old days too, before we had reliable tuners .al. Smile

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Gabriel Stutz · From: Chicago, USA

Ray, these definitely were not cheaply or carelessly made guitars, I just don't think that the manufactures need to worry about the logarithmic accuracy that a fixed fret instrument maker does. The fret markers are usually just screened on as a reference. The only guitar that I've had that seemed to be correct was a shobud I had with the dust-catcher plastic fretboard. Every guitar I've played (not just my own) has been close, just not exact. I would never judge the quality of a pedal steel by how accurate the fret markers were. Besides, if the fret markers are going to be accurate, the lines should be much thinner. Even if the mark is in the right place, if it's 1/8 wide you still have to find it by listening to where it's in tune.

Gabriel

Charles Curtis · Posted 16 Sep 2008 10:38 am

I am more interested in "right hand" technique. For example, the picking action of David's right hand. I would love to see the "up close" technique of David when he's playing, in other words which finger he uses when doing some common licks on the treble strings. I would try to relearn my own technique if I could watch him up close. I hope that this is making sense, but from what I have observed, IMO this is a good way to go.

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