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Topic: Intonation - More tricky than I thought. Tips? |
Judson Bertoch
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2008 4:05 pm |
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ah, yes. lap steel and the bar: makes regular guitar and bottleneck seem like a child's game.
Left and right and forward and back in micro- wow is this precise stuff indeed! Trickier and slower going than I anticipated...
I'm slowly doing scales and a few chords with my guitar tuner "on" and visually (meter) and sonically finding my way and hopefully actively it's sinking in to the brain.
Is this the best or only way to go about this?
How much eyes vs ear vs instictive feel that develops?
This is different for everyone, but what kind of time goal should I set for getting decent note accuracy with the bar?
3 months/6 months/a year? I don't want to end up getting way down on myself with an unrealistic goal for acquiring good intonation.
If I know it's probably going to be "x" time length then I can adjust expectations accordingly.
JB |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 31 Aug 2008 4:19 pm
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Don't worry about time frame. It doesn't matter. Work at it and you. will. improve. Period.
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| How much eyes vs ear vs instictive feel |
all of the above. I don't much care for working with a tuner like that.
I highly recommend a cd that Bob Hoffnar made--
http://www.bobhoffnar.net/intonation.html
It's nothing sophisticated----it is a bunch of long tones--drones--that you play against. You work unisons with it and you work all other tones against it too, developing the ear, the hand/eye, the works, as well as fine tuning the depth of your ear discrimination, learning to hear the beats of pitches in harmony and in conflict.
But as far as impatience......all I can say is 'patience'. All time spent working at it is time well spent. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 31 Aug 2008 4:21 pm
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I'd recommend you turn that tuner off - it'll make you good at reading a tuner display, but you need to trust your ears. They'll come along after a while,- I went through a period where I could hardly listen to music at all because everything sounded off-pitch to me, it nearly drove me crazy, but that's how pitch-obsessive I became...
One thing that worked for me - and I have no idea whether this is accepted as good training or not, but in my case it worked - was to imagine I was playing a 'piano'; No slides, no vibrato, just went straight for the center of the note. I used simple melodies that didn't require much besides good pitch, and it didn't take all that much time to get a relatively good control of the pitch.
These days I sometuimes dim the lights, or even close my eyes, just to see how close I can get without visual clues. It helps that my lap steels and weissenborns all have the same scale length..
Good luck! 
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2008 8:41 pm
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Yeah, good advice from Steinar. You HAVE to develop
your ear. In the real world, it just comes at you too fast to constantly check with your eyes. It's
a game of either hitting it dead on or automatically
correcting quicker than anyone, including yourself, can tell. The more you do it, the better you'll get
at it.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Orville Johnson
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 31 Aug 2008 9:14 pm
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you can use the drone method on your guitar. I don't know what tuning you're in but I'm sure you've got a low string that is the same note (different octave) as your first string.
Pick a major scale on the first string with your finger while you pluck the lower string with your thumb. The low matching drone should help you hear if you're in tune. Develop your relative pitch recognition like this, using your ears, instead of looking at a tuner.
Do the same thing with some different scales-minor, pentatonic, whole tone, etc. you'll get it. And there's no way to put a timeline on it because it never ends. Your pitch has to be relative to the people you're playing with and you have to be sensitive enough to make adjustments as needed because there is no absolute pitch standard no matter how much we may wish it to be so. |
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Judson Bertoch
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2008 6:20 am
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Wow, thanks guys!
With so few teachers, this board is a LIFESAVER.
There are always things you bring up to keep a person on center and moving ahead. And it's stuff I would never really find on my own.
I will do these and I just ordered that CD as well.
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George Piburn
From:
The Land of Enchantment New Mexico
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Posted 1 Sep 2008 6:24 am edit
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edit
Last edited by George Piburn on 20 Jun 2012 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Judson Bertoch
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2008 6:37 am
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George - when I got your DVDs, I was just like your student: now THAT doesn't seem overly difficult..look how easy George does it!
HA, then organ crushing reality set in! |
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Howard Tate
From:
Leesville, Louisiana, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Sep 2008 7:27 am
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| It helped me a lot to think about singing when I practiced. I would worry if I was right on or not and didn't always trust my ears. Then I started thinking about when I would sing I didn't worry if I was on pitch or not, if you can carry a tune you just do it without thinking about it. I'm not a good singer but thinking like that gives me confidence, so it helps me. f course it's more complicated than that but you need to know when the bar is in the right place. This is just my own idea. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 1 Sep 2008 9:17 am
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I'll second the use of the Bob Hoffnar CDs. Very good practice for playing with other musicians/ instruments, which is what it's all about.
On one level, it can be very boring to practice scales or chord tones against drones, but on another, you can start to really get inside the notes, feeling and experiencing them as entities, and then within the musical context of the moment. (I highly recommend the book "Practicing" by Glen Kurtz). |
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Billy Tonnesen
From:
R.I.P., Buena Park, California
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Posted 1 Sep 2008 11:50 am
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| Start playing with a group as soon as you can. You will know by your ear whether you are in tune with the group and whether you are on "fret" or not. If you do not hear it the group will let you know. You have to have a good ear to progress. Play simple at first until you get the feel of the fretboard. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 2 Sep 2008 7:26 pm
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I just put a few more of my drone Cds in the mail to you guys that ordered them. I hope you find it helpful. I look at the drones for intonation the same way I look at a metronome for time if that makes any sense. Its not exciting but it does work. Well, I do actually find practicing super slow with a metronome exciting..... I can play the heck out of a whole note !
anyhoo, Thanks,
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Bob |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 2 Sep 2008 9:33 pm
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Start playing with a band ASAP.
Play with confidence, don't be tentative.
Vibrato is your friend. Don't be afraid to overuse it at first.
Don't be a slave to the fret lines, but don't ignore them either.
Simple playing is often better than complex. This remains true regardless of how good of a player you become.
Above all, listen.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Papa Joe Pollick
From:
Swanton, Ohio
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Posted 2 Sep 2008 10:40 pm
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| It's all a matter of developing your ear..One thing that I do that I THINK is helping is to practice a lot high up on the neck.If I'm in tune up on the high frets,I know I will be down on the lowers.Thats also the way I "fine tune" all my inturments.JMHO....PJ.... |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 2 Sep 2008 11:49 pm
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Vibrato is your friend. Don't be afraid to overuse it at first. |
Interesting thing, I find that players using a forced vibrato when they start out tend to develop truly bad habits that are very difficult to break. I find it much more productive to get your hands accurate and relaxed before asking them to do vibrato. Vibrato does not mask bad intonation ! New players that tend to use some sort of tension to wiggle or shake the bar generally sound pretty terrible. A forced vibrato does add to muscle tension which doesn't help anything when it comes to getting a good sound or pitch.
If a new player is patient and focuses on slow, relaxed accuracy a smooth and musical vibrato will come naturally.
_________________
Bob |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 3 Sep 2008 2:09 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
New players that tend to use some sort of tension to wiggle or shake the bar generally sound pretty terrible. A forced vibrato does add to muscle tension which doesn't help anything when it comes to getting a good sound or pitch.
If a new player is patient and focuses on slow, relaxed accuracy a smooth and musical vibrato will come naturally. |
Words of wisdom! I started lap steeling three years ago, and pitch definitely came before vibrato in my learning curve. I have very good intonation by now but I am just starting to get to grips with vibrato, which I find much more difficult.
About the hearing/seeing aspects of intionation, hearing is as stated before the main thing, but a piece of advice I picked up on this forum was to look at the fret you "aim for" before the hand goes there. If I, for instance, must do a fast slide from the 5th to the 12th fret, glancing at the 12th fret beforehand somehow coordinates the muscles of my arm and hand to stop in the right place. Just a piece of advice I learned here that I think was helpful.
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 3 Sep 2008 3:28 am
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| I tried the tuner thing, bleh. The Hoffnar drones are FAR more useful as you are trying to train your ear. I still use those at least once a week and they still prove that as a steel player I make a pretty good plumber. |
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Charley Wilder
From:
Dover, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 3 Sep 2008 5:47 am
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| I'm of the "develop your ear" school. I don't have great natural pitch but it developed over time so I can compensate when I have one string flat or sharp, Etc., without even thinking about it. I've played a complete set with a sring flat and it wasn't a problem. I re-tuned when we started up again. I don't like to tune in flight as it seems to never sound right and I just keep fiddling with it until it drives me nuts! I heartily agree with the "playing in a group" school. I also use Howard's method of singing along in my mind or thinking about singing while I'm playing. That's how I improvise also. I kind of scat sing to myself and transfer it to the hands. Sounds kind of dumb but it works for me! |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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T. W. Hatem
From:
Northern Hemisphere
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Posted 5 Sep 2008 4:11 am Today's Tip.......
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..... the speed of an eraser ...
I like it and won't forget it. Nice little vid !
Thanks for bringing that up Rick. |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Sep 2008 4:21 am
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| Yes sir - that's what Jerry Byrd said, and he sure knew how to do it right. |
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