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Topic: Zen Drive versus Seymour Duncan |
David Cook
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 4:12 am |
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| Hi, I know this has been discussed some before, but I am wondering how many of you who have tried the Zen Drive have also tried the Seymorur Duncan Twin Tube. And are there any problems with the tubes and replacing them? It seems that the tube sound would be what most people would want . For instance Brad Sarno is a tube "fanatic" but he is talking about the Zen Drive and not the Seymour Duncan. I know he makes a tube preamp but it doesn't distort. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 4:55 am
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Well, I can say that I got to mess with the Seymour Duncan last year at the store, and it really was amazing. It honestly was one of the best sounding tube overdrives I've ever heard. Very natural and dynamically expressive. I just have yet to personally own one. They're a bit different from eachother. I own the Zen and have had time to work with it a lot, as well as analyze it on the bench. But I can't really offer a good comparison because I just don't know the Duncan that well.
Brad |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 1:07 pm
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| I have and like both pedals a lot ....They are both 2 of my favorite pedals ....The Duncan can have a clean, rhythm, and a lead , channel setup .....The Zendrive cannot do this ....The Zen drive has more control over the EQ however ...The Duncan has a pronounced tube tone ....DUHHHH ..It's a tube effect unit , but with that tube tone comes a smoother effect ... The Zen has a more transparent tone than the Duncan which is more colored .... You can dial the Zen down to hardly any effect which is harder to do with the Duncan ....Having to have an additional power outlet to plug the Duncan into is also a concern ... You have to send in the Duncan to have the tube replaced ..They don't want you changing the tube yourself which is a big let down on the Duncan ... The Duncan is hard to fit into a pedal board too if that's a concern to you ...... I have both pedals because I like both pedals , and they do different things to different steels, guitars , keyboards , etc ......Which one is better ?..... Which car do you drive tonight ? The Porsche or the Lamborghini ? .... There's really not a bad choice here ....Either way you go, you will be a winner .....Jim |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 4:03 pm
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On Dan Tyack's advice, I have both the Seymour Duncan Twin Tube and the ZenDrive 2, which also has a tube inside. They are very different.
I love the SDTT because it is one of the few guitar FX boxes that works well in front of the volume pedal (Hilton active IR pedal), where it can be dialed in to be pick sensitive independent of the volume set by the VP. For me, that pick sensitive spot is it's forte, and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. I have heard people with clean solid-state amps say the SDTT is also good with those (in front of the VP for that pick sensitive spot). It just nails that tube-amp-on-the-edge-of-distortion pick sensitivity that I find so useful for blues and rock on pedal steel.
I have not tried to use it after the VP to overdrive an amp, because I play Fender silver-face tube amps that are setup clean to the top and wont overdrive. Before the VP, if you dial the SDTT gain beyond the pick-sensitive spot, the pure distortion gets muddy fast. Dialing up its treble helps. There are two channels, and I find the rhythm channel works better for steel, but the lead channel can be dialed a little rattier in the pure distortion area.
The ZenDrive 2, even with it's internal tube, is completely different. I can't make it pick sensitive. Its distortion is either on or off, like a fuzz box. But that distortion is gorgeous. It's like a Dumble or other boutique guitar amp in overdrive. But like any pure distortion unit, with steel, it's only good for single-string lead work. Its a lead box, not a rhythm box. And like any always-on distortion or fuzz box, it gets old very quickly. For me, it's something to be used very sparingly - I can't go all night with it, even for blues and rock.
So for my uses on pedal steel for country-rock, alt-country, rockabilly, modern rock-country, blues and rock, the SDTT is my bread-and-butter distortion unit. The ZenDrive is an exotic for that certain boutique tube amp overdrive sound for an occassional soaring single-string lead.
P.S.: If you check out the samples of "Flip, Flop and Fly" and "Drink Muddy Water" on my new CD at CD Baby (see below), you can hear me use the SDTT for pedal steel rhythm and lead. |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 4:42 pm
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David,
My Zendrive is not the tube model , and i can more easily dial down the gain , and have no problem using it in a rhythm setting ....It really shines when kicking it in for lead work, but it's very tranparent when using it for rhythm work also ....YMMV ...Jim |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 6:04 pm
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I own a Duncan Twin Tube, and used a Zen Drive (original version without tube, not tube Model 2) over Xmas last year for a couple of gigs and a recording session over a period of several days.
Cranked, they're both somewhat similar - they're sort of like my THD Flexi-50 cranked with 12AX7's into old-style 6L6's. Even with my pedal steels, they can be tweaked to give a tone reminiscent of David Lindley's tone on "Mercury Blues", which I expect is probably a cranked Dumble. That's my idea of cranked steel guitar tone, so I like 'em both.
But when I backed them off, they were somewhat different. The Zen Drive was good into a good amp - for example it brought out real nice harmonics in a smaller to mid-sized Fender amps like a Deluxe through Pro Reverb sizes, without diming everything.
But on its own into a real clean amp, it was real nice as a clean boost, but didn't give me much "juice". That's not a criticism at all - that is a very useful function, but I didn't find three really distinct sounds on it. There was bypassed, clean but louder, and cranked.
On the other hand, I found good "juicy" sounds on the Twin-Tube at practically any gain-setting into any amp. It even gave me some reasonable tube-amp sounds into a NV 112 or 400, which amazed me. I had more or less given up on the idea of getting useful juicy sounds out of these without something like a modeler. It is a very smooth pedal, especially in the lower-gain mode. It gets quite a bit rattier and more lo-fi in high-gain mode. It is just amazing with my Les Pauls in low-gain mode. Just opens up an amp without blowing the roof off. So, the sounds I get are bypassed, lightly juiced, and cranked, which is probably more of what I expect in a pedal like this. I think this would appeal to people into more tube-amp blues types of sounds. Definitely not modern at all.
Of course, this is all a matter of taste and what one wants. I don't think there's much of any way to tell what works without trying them with your own rig and own ears. I also found each of these pedals both equipment and touch sensitive, so what works for me may not work for you. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 7:46 pm
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| I traded some stuff for a Zen 2, and I wonder if we're talking about the same pedal? I get massive mojo out of mine, which cleans up pretty good when the guitar's volume is backed off. I don't know about the Duncan, never tried one, but that Zen Drive is the pedal for me. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 26 Aug 2008 11:08 pm
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| Stephen Gambrell wrote: |
| ...which cleans up pretty good when the guitar's volume is backed off. |
So are you talking about guitar or pedal steel? I don't have a volume control on my steel (as most modern pedal steels don't), so when I put the ZD2 in front of the volume pedal, there is no volume to back off. I haven't tried it after the VP, because I don't like to try to control distortion with my foot - really clumsy.
In these discussions, we need to be very careful about whether we are talking about guitar with a volume control, or pedal steel with a volume pedal. I find FX boxes work very differently for these two very different situations. Pedal steels have very hot, high impedance pickups, compared to regular guitar. And guitar volume controls are very different from PSG volume pedals. And guitar amps are very different (crunchy tubes) from steel amps (clean tubes or ultra-clean solid state, both incapable of overdrive). |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 2:51 am
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Yeah, I'm talking about 6-string. I would put ANY distortion/OD in front of the volume pedal on steel, though, unless I turned the amp down, and kicked the volume pedal full-on, for my solos.
And what do the tubes do in a 9-volt powered O.D. pedal??? |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 3:22 am
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| Quote: |
| In these discussions, we need to be very careful about whether we are talking about guitar with a volume control, or pedal steel with a volume pedal. I find FX boxes work very differently for these two very different situations. Pedal steels have very hot, high impedance pickups, compared to regular guitar. |
I'm talking about both, although I put the pedal after the steel volume pedal. As I've mentioned before, I have always used a combination of picking attack plus guitar volume control or volume pedal to control overdrive level. That is more or less implicit when just working with tube amp distortion, which is my model. I haven't used a distortion pedal in a very long time till this one came along.
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| And what do the tubes do in a 9-volt powered O.D. pedal??? |
The Duncan adapter is 16 VAC, not 9 VDC, and there is a high plate voltage on the tubes - the manual says they use a step-up transformer to get the higher B+ voltage. One harmony central reviewer claims to have measured around 400 VDC. I haven't measured it myself, and neither the manual or the usual websites actually say what the voltage is - just that it's a "high-voltage".
It seems very strange to me that they step down the voltage with a wall-wart and then step it up inside the box. Sounds like some perverse UL/liability thing to keep from running an AC cord to the pedal. |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 8:47 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And what do the tubes do in a 9-volt powered O.D. pedal??? |
The Duncan adapter is 16 VAC, not 9 VDC, and there is a high plate voltage on the tubes - the manual says they use a step-up transformer to get the higher B+ voltage. One harmony central reviewer claims to have measured around 400 VDC. I haven't measured it myself, and neither the manual or the usual websites actually say what the voltage is - just that it's a "high-voltage".
It seems very strange to me that they step down the voltage with a wall-wart and then step it up inside the box. Sounds like some perverse UL/liability thing to keep from running an AC cord to the pedal. |
My Zen Drive 2 has a 12AX7, and a straight 9VDC power supply.Is there such a thing as a step-up DC transformer? I suspect they're putting the 9 volts on a grid, grounding the cathode, and using the tube as a diode, with no B+ at all. Kinda like the solid state amp that somebody built awhile back, that had a row of tubes, with orange LED's behind 'em, for that warm fuzzy tube glow... |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 10:47 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| It seems very strange to me that they step down the voltage with a wall-wart and then step it up inside the box. Sounds like some perverse UL/liability thing to keep from running an AC cord to the pedal. |
This has become standard practice for many tube driven overdrive pedals. Getting the transformer away from the box allows the box to be made lighter, with less shielding from the transformer. Stepping up the voltage allows more common wall warts/line lumps to be used without having to use a specialized transformer. This allows the tubes to be properly driven with a higher voltage. I also think most 12-16 volt transformers put out the right amount of mA to be used in the applications (usually from 500 to 1200 mA) though this is really more of a guess on my part.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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David Cook
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 11:11 am
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| Thanks so much for all the replies! I know yall have talked about the same things in other threads, but you say it a little differently everytime and I am always learning something. I agree with David D. that this is somewhat new territory for the pedal steel with volume pedal and it needs some discussion. I got a CMATMODS low gain overdrive pedal and I like what it does for all my SS amps( even my BF Twin) when I crank it's volume all the way up and have the gain one third of the way up. The pedal is the Butah overdrive. For a pick sensitive crunch lead tone I have added a Pro Rat but it comes on too fast. I just can't buy everything to try out. I am a little worried about sending in the Duncan to have the tube changed every 700 hours or so. But it sounds like the Duncan or maybe the Barber Direct Drive or maybe the CMATMODS Signa Drive or maybe the Blackstar Dist or maybe the Ibanez screamer might do the trick. Whew |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 11:17 am
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| Quote: |
| My Zen Drive 2 has a 12AX7, and a straight 9VDC power supply.Is there such a thing as a step-up DC transformer? I suspect they're putting the 9 volts on a grid, grounding the cathode, and using the tube as a diode, with no B+ at all. Kinda like the solid state amp that somebody built awhile back, that had a row of tubes, with orange LED's behind 'em, for that warm fuzzy tube glow... |
One could, in principle, use the wall-wart to step down and rectify/filter to DC, then inside the box: convert DC to AC, then step up to the appropriate voltage, and finally rectify/filter again to the DC B+ voltage. But that is even more Rube Goldberg than Duncan's approach of stepping down in the wall wart and then stepping up again. I don't know the circuit, but I suspect you're right.
| Quote: |
| This has become standard practice for many tube driven overdrive pedals. Getting the transformer away from the box allows the box to be made lighter, with less shielding from the transformer. |
There is a step-up transformer inside the Duncan Twin Tube. Instead of stepping up from 117 VAC to whatever, it goes down from 117 VAC to 16 VAC in the wall-wart, and then from 16 VAC to whatever. I don't see any technical issue going from 117 VAC to, let's say, 300-400 VAC. This transformer doesn't need to generate much power, so it wouldn't have to be a big transformer. In fact, it could probably be smaller since the transformer turns ratio would be smaller.
Of course, I don't know for sure, but I expect this is to avoid more stringent UL requirements for any product that takes standard line voltage into the device itself.
As indicated above, my sense is that most tube-driven overdrive pedals don't operate the tubes at anything like normal tube B+ voltages. |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 27 Aug 2008 12:10 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I don't see any technical issue going from 117 VAC to, let's say, 300-400 VAC. This transformer doesn't need to generate much power, so it wouldn't have to be a big transformer. In fact, it could probably be smaller since the transformer turns ratio would be smaller. |
Hmm, I'm afraid all I know is that the Vox Cooltron series, the Blackstar series, and the Duncan tube series all use the same principle, and they all claim that the tube gets hit with the correct amount of power, as though it were inside an amp.
I do have one tube driven pedal that has a mains attachment: the SIB Varidrive. The tone and distortion changes radically with different tubes, but oddly enough, it not that touch sensitive. 
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Primitive Utility Steel |
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