Tuning your steel without ever having to tune your nylon tu

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

I have heard countless times on the forum, players say they never touch their nylon tuners at the changer when they tune. Well, everytime I tune, I have to tune my
nylon tuners. I can tune my tuning keys, open strings, and when I engage a pedal or knee lever, I'm usually flat. Don't know how many cents flat, but the peterson strobo-flip bars are moving purty fast. Wish somebody would tell me how to tune my open strings, without having to worry with my nylon tuners everytime I tune. Or, is it really possible to do that? Sad

Am I the only one that has to tune my pedals and knees ever tunin? If your in the same boat, stand up and testify! Smile

BTW- I'm playin a 2003-2004 Mullen RP with Tommy White Jagwire nickel strings.

Terry
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Brian Kurlychek · From: Maine, USA

Heres the thing Terry. If every time you tighten the nylon tuners, well, eventually you will have to loosen them. This may be why you are going flat. It happened to me. Now, even though I am a few cents off, I leave my nylons alone for the most part. This might be what people are talking about.
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John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

One thing you must attempt to do every time you tune open (and without fail) is: you must always tune to the exact same ‘open-pitch’. If your open string is tuned to 440Hz. one time and you have your nylon-tuners adjusted properly and then the next time you tune that open-string to 442Hz. you will also have to re-adjust your nylon-tuner to put that string-change back to “on pitch”! As you strings gets older, that can also change the settings needed on the nylon-tuners! It's actually caused by a number of factors! You're more than likely going to have to re-adjust the nylon-tuners a little more frequently on the 3rd, 5th. and 6th. strings of the E9 Tuning, because; they are a bit more sensitive than the other strings!
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Gary Carriger · From: Victoria, Texas

Terry...you're not alone. Every time I change strings I tune my pedal pulls. As a matter of fact, I touch up my pedals quite often.
Gary

John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

Of course, I don't want to mention any particular brand of guitar, but; certain brands/models of PSG are notorious for not staying in tune or having tuning-problems!
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Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Aw, c'mon John,name some names!!!!

KP

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

Terry,
I have a steel, that I used for 29 yrs. It's an all wood body with a wood neck. All solid 3/4" maple construction, with hardly any "cabinet drop". In all the hours of playing, I hardly ever tuned the nylon hex nuts. It always stayed the same, as long as I used the same guage strings. A real workhorse. Three years ago, I bought a brand new modern steel with 5/8" laminated maple and aluminum neck. It's not as stable with the pedal tuning as I'd like. It's a great steel, mind you, but, it has to be tweeked more often than the other. There is a little more "cabinet drop" with the new one, also. But, that doesn't bother me at all. It's not audible when I play it.
Every steel is going to be a little different. You either accept that, or get one that pleases your tastes. I chose to overlook the differences, because of the better playability and better sound of the new one. I've grown to love it. It's a personal choice.

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

MY guess is that the guys who never touch their nylon tuners, either keep new strings on or can't hear that they are out of tune.
I change my strings about every 20-24 hours of playing time. Thats like 4-5 club dates not including practice time. When I put new strings on, slight adjustments are needed on the nylons. If after that, they start to need more than a little touch up between sets, it's time for new strings.
IMHO, anyone who says, my steel never breaks a string so I never change them, or these strings have been on for over a year,.. is not playing in tune.. and can't hear the difference. If you can't tune up then it is all pointless.
I gave a lesson to a guy who tuned his opens with a electronic tuner.. but when I sat behind his steel all the changes were out and very sour.. because he didn't know what the changes were supposed to be. He had been trying to play for over 20 years. I asked him to play me something he was real comfortable with.. I didn't recognise even one note as "Green Green Grass of Home". I played the whole tune in open position and never tounched the bar. I am afraid he still did not get it.
I hate to break a string on a gig, it's a a pain in the butt. Using this schedule I have not broken a string on a gig in years. If I was not gigging , I would still change my strings as needed because they lose tone, sustain, and need more nylon fine tuning as they stretch.

Joe Shelby · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

I think this is the first time someone has mentioned
this reality of steel tuning, or maybe it's come up before and I've missed it.
I own a "much in demand brand" all pull guitar that is 20 years old. Whenever possible, I'll put at least
15 minutes of playing time on it before tuning. Sometimes I simply have to start from wherever it is,
and go from there.
Either way, typically, all 3 pedals, E>D# lever, and
the feel stop D#>D changes will need nylon tuner tweaking. Less so the E>F lever, F#>G lever, and the
D#>C# change.
I chalk it up to temperature change, but it frequently needs attention at the righthand end.
String age doesn't seem to be a factor.
Am I nuts or what?

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

I have found the same 'gremlin' on EVERY guitar regardless of brand. I solved the problem long ago by physically 'forming' the new strings with my fingers over first the changer, then over the roller nut with my index finger and thumb. This forces the new strings into their 'home' position without having to wait for them to do that on their own. As a result, I have nylon tuners that I haven't touched or tweaked in about 15 years. By now, those scudders are most likely 'frozen' onto the rods and most likely wouldn't turn anyhow!!! Try it...it works.
PRR

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

I failed to mention in my previous post, that the actual diameter of the roller has much to do with how soon the string will 'settle in' to its new 'home' position. If the roller is small, it will take forever especially on the larger-diameter plain strings such as a .022". If you tune up, then push on these strings as I mentioned before, you'll find as much as a 1/4-fret drop in pitch on the bigger ones or thereabouts. If you are trying to 'chase' this error with the nylon tuners, you're spinning your wheels in the sand. Make the strings conform, then go from there. You'll most likely discover that you really didn't have to do a thing to the nylon tuner in the first place.
PRR

Brian Henry · Posted 24 Aug 2008 3:15 am

I change strings every three weeks regardless of the number of gigs. I rarely have to touch the nylon tuners on both my Carter and MCI. Every time I play I check them with my tuner, but like I say I can't remember when I last had to touch them.
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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Set up your guitar, let it acclimatize to the environment for a little while. Before you start tuning, play it for a short time. Your strings will stretch slightly as they warm up from your hands. Then tune with the keys. Now check your pedals and they'll most likely be right on the money.

If you just walk in, set up and immediately start tuning, you'll have to do it again later.

Same with changing strings. As others have stated above, you don't want to touch your pedal tuners until you have stretched out the strings and they have stabilized in the open tuning. If you always use the same string brand, gauge and compound, only an occasional pedal tweak should be necessary.

If you are continuously tuning the pedals while the open tuning remains stable, check for a worn out nylon tuner that backs off as you engage the pedal....or possibly a bad string.

Here's another thing...when playing with the band, you may need to change your pedal tuning slightly to sound in tune with the rest of the band...perhaps unconciously or without memory of the action, so that when you check your meter later, the settings will be different.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Letting the strings warm up (or cool down) is the main thing for me, and letting the steel get to whatever temperature I'm playing in. I usually try not to finalize the tuners until the strings are a few days old, and I might have to reset them a bit if the strings are really old...(lazy, yes!) Any time I change brands of strings I have to redo them for sure. If your steel's sitting in a hot room and you only turn on the air conditioner when you go to play, you'll drive yourself nuts. (Reverse for winter, natch Shocked

)

Larry Weaver · From: Asheville, North Carolina, USA

I change strings every 4 or 5 gigs or once a month, which ever comes first. I find that I very rarely have to make any sort of adjustments at the changer. Also, I very rarely break strings. The tuner I use is set up for me to tune to the same "440" every time.

Now on the other hand, if I go much past that 4-5 gig or one month scenario, I will have to touch up at the changer quite a bit. Then, on the next string change I find I have to touch up the nylons again to get back to where I was in the first place. So, it makes most sense to me to change strings often enough to avoid the hassle.

And like Paul and Jerry mention, I also gently form the strings to a "home position", and I carefully stretch out the strings properly. Any changes at the nylons are only made after the strings have stabilized this way. Of course you want to stick with the same string brands and gauges.

This works great on both of my Fessendens, but I've also had the same experience with previously owned Sho-Buds, Mullen, Derby, Carter and GFIs. Seems to me if the guitar is well built, maintained and lubed with should be no problem.

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

Yes, I agree, temperature change has a lot to do with tuning. But, once the steel and the strings acclimate themselves to the surrounding temperature, there should be no tuning changes with the hex nuts. Of course, all the other factors come into play then, like, new strings,different guage strings, worn out parts, out of balance changer mechanism, stretched out springs, and so on, and so forth. But, once it's set and the steel is in good shape, you should only have to tweak it occasionally, not 3-4 times a night. If you do, then, either there's something wrong with the steel or you're over compensating for a missed step in the initial setup.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Many good points on this thread that I need to remind myself about occasionally.

I carefully check all my important changes every time I set up for a rehearsal or gig, but I don't have to adjust my nylons every time on a properly set up pedal steel - not at all, and there are frequently signficant time lapses since I don't play out a lot right now. But the points about temperature and changing strings are important, IMO.

I always try to wait for the temperature to equilibrate when setting up a pedal steel in a new location before making adjustments. I've experimented around with this, and it definitely saves a lot of headaches for me to be patient. The bad times are when we arrive at the last minute, pull everything out of a hot or cold car, set up, and bam - we have to play.

Keeping strings appropriately fresh, changing with exactly the same gauge, type, and even brand, as well as stretching and stabilizing a new set all make a difference. All bets are off if changing gauges, wrap material, and sometimes even brands. On a wrapped string, what might not be obvious is a change in the core diameter when moving to a different brand or type of string.

The last thing I do is start fiddling around with the nylons. But every once in a while, they need a little tweak. I also tend to back them off a bit first and then turn them in if necessary. It's not hard to get them too tight and compromise return-to-pitch.

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

Good advice above in not starting moving the nylon nuts right away, let the guitar settle in. If I
change strings, I pull them up to pitch and let them set for a day, then pull them up again. I may have to move a nut on a heavy string after changing.

I have two LeGrandes and they are extremely stable
after the initial day or two string change period.
The exception is, on a given night, my ear may want
to hear the B to C# pull at a slightly different spot, depending on whether I'm playing against a keyboard or not.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

When I change strings, and I always use the same brand, I always check the raises and lowers. Sometimes something will need touch up and sometimes it won't. After that I rarely have to touch up a raise or lower. And, like many I let the guitar sit for at least 30 minutes after I set it up before tuning and usually I'm at a job an hour to an hour and a half before the show and set up and that gives it plenty of time before tuning.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Good points by John De...I have seen guitars that have unstable changers. IOW, the pull does not go to the same pitch every time. These problems are an exception to most of the things discussed here, sometimes requiring an experienced mechanic's hand.

Many times, there is not enough slack or enough travel in the linkage. If it's tuned right against the changer, you'll always have tuning problems. Or there could be a problem with binding on an adjacent rod or change.

Another problem, in spite of what some say, is a loose return spring affecting the raised note tuning.
There must be enough tension on the spring so that it stays tight against the changer stop when the raise is activated.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I touch up the pedal tunings when I change strings, and again about halfway through the life of the strings. That's only because I don't change strings as often as a studio musician would. I squeeze more life out of them when they're half-dead.
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Although my Carter stays in tune pretty good, I usually touch up the tuning before every gig. There are times when I pull the guitar out of the case, set it up, and tune it and every note (or almost every note) and pedal change are still in tune. Even after a week of sitting in it's case. As the strings get older, I have to tune more often and tune the pedals more.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I have never had that problem with my Kline. I change strings often. Always the same brand, same gauges. If a pull or lower isn't right, I know it's the string. I also always use my old Fender string stretcher to get the strings "set." Then, again, a Kline is not the same animal that this thread is about. Different system altogether. No nylon tuners.

Don Sulesky · From: Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH

I have both a SuperPro early 80's vintage and a '99 Emmons LeGrande. I use the same GHS brand strings on both. When I change strings I bring the strings up to pitch and play it and stretch the strings.
Then let it sit overnight. Then I check it with my Strobo Flip. Seldom do I need to touch my nylon tuners unless the strings have been on the steel a long time.

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

I appreciate all the replies. I always use the same brand and gauge of strings. The set I have on now are less than 3 weeks old. I also, from the advice of the Mullen website, press down on each string above and below the nut when changing to new strings.

I know for sure temperature effects strings. That's why before our group practices, I'll turn the A/C on at the Church about 4 hours before practice time, and then tune my strings about 30 minutes before we start to play.

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