The term "cents"

Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

I've heard people say that their steel returns "2 cents flat" or "4 cents sharp" ect. What would "2 cents" flat, for example, look like on a tuner with a needle? I'm guessing that if the needle is on 438, then that string is 2 cents flat. Is that correct? I've heard it explained two different ways. Thank you for your help.

Mitch

Pat Comeau · From: New Brunswick, Canada

I think you have it right, cause that's how i see it too,

but again i could be wrong Confused

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Dave Boothroyd · From: Staffordshire Moorlands

A cent is a hundredth of a semitone. If your A is 438 instead of 440 it is two Hertz flat, not two cents. Hertz is the unit of frequency. We used to call it 440 CPS (Cycles per second)
In round numbers, if A=440, then A sharp would be 466Hz
(440 * twelfth root of two)
To keep the maths simple, that is a difference of 22 Hz. A hundredth of that, one cent, would be 0.22Hz.
Therefore two cents difference at 440 would be 0.44 Hz, and a difference of two Hz would be nearly ten cents.
The relationship between frequency differences and pitch differences depends on the starting frequency.
For example between A3(440) and the A an octave higher is 440Hz. Between A5 and A6, two octaves higher, the frequency difference is 1760 Hz.
Disclaimer- I am aware that the actual maths are more complex, but this is meant to be a simple explanation.
I don't really want to discuss intonation here either.
All of my tuners are calibrated in Hertz, but the meters read plus or minus 50 cents= one quarter tone.
It is a difficult topic, but remember that Cents are musical pitch and Hertz are scientific frequency.
Cheers
Dave

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Tuners that "read in Hertz" aren't really showing you Hertz, unless you happen to be tuning the actual note A-440 itself. On any other note, they're saying "The note is as many cents sharp or flat of Equal Temperament for this note as would result in this frequency if the note you were tuning was A-440".

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

here's my half-hertz:

If you can be satisfied with a simple answer with rough accuracy, think--

1 hertz == 4 cents

This will change at different pitches (logarithmic stuff) so if you are needing to be seriously accurate you will need to get mathmatical but the 4 cents to a hertz formula works for me to at least have an idea of what you're looking at.

google the phrase "cents to hertz" if you want to see how deep this can get.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jon Light makes it as simple as one needs it to be.

So just think of 4 cents to one cycle. 2 cents then would be 1/2 of a cycle. Etc.

Cents is an easier number to work with; particularly when you consider parts of a cycle. Example is:

C# above middle C is 554 point something, something, something, something Hz (Cycles pers second) if carried to 8 places (engineering standard).

This crazy number is simply too complex to deal with for most of us, including even many engineers.

So long ago, they decided to make it simpler. And they did IMO.

Cents is rarely over 2 digits to the left of the decimal point, nor more than 1 digit to the right of the decimal point.

It simply makes it easier to deal with, as long as you understand how it used.

Also, and on the same subject: 440HZ which is now the standard for "A=440" concert pitch, applies to a single not in actuality. Any other note is NOT 440! Rather, it is some crazy number like the above example.

So long ago again, they decided to make it simpler. IE, instead of using the actual HZ for each note in each octave (there are 8 of them on a piano), they made every other note "relative" to 440.

This way the only HZ numbers that are important, are 440 + or - several HZ. Rather than to use the bin laden awful numbers, that are actual.

Take a look at the following link and scroll down to the chart almost at the very bottom of the page. Look for note "A" on the left. Trace it all the way across. These numbers are not hard to deal with.

BUT.......................

All other notes become a nightmare. Check 'em out. That is what a player would have to deal with if a tuner used the actual frequencies of any give note.

So relating everything to 440 (EVEN octaves) it made it much simpler for the player/tuner.

http://www.precisionstrobe.com/apps/pianotemp/temper.html

Cents even did away with ALL of this. And it made it much better for players who wanted to use it to tune their instruments.

An informed person, is always better able to deal (cope) with things they formerly did not understand.

Praise Jesus for giving the "desire" in those who yearn to learn, and grow in knowledge and wisdom.

For without that, we would all still be behind plows today (or cookin' from sun up 'til sun down), IF we wanted to survive. And this appled 365 days a year!

Wow!

c.
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Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

============================================
JUST A NOTE AFTER POSTING:
Carl beat me to most of the info in my post
Hopefully this all makes sense to you now
============================================

Another wrinkle:
'Hz' (Hertz) is cycles per second
Every musical note represents the vibration of SOMETHING -- like a string or a column of air that moves at a certain frequency of vibration
That frequency determines the pitch of the note that results.

The 'Hz' on your tuner is not exactly the same thing. It represents the calibration frequency of the 'A' note that we find on string 3 of E9 with the B pedal. This is 'A440' that you sometimes hear in tuning discussions.

When you tune your E string (4 on E9) to this A440 standard you are tuning it to the E that is in tune with A440. 440 Hz is ONLY THAT A NOTE, but the A440 standard allows you to set the frequencies for all pitches. If you divide the octaves equally into 12 parts, you will have EQUAL TEMPERAMENT (ET). There are many other temperaments that require you to add or subtract values from ET. When you use the 'Newman tuning' or 'Emmons Co chart' you are adding or subtracting from the ET values to get a tempered tuning. Just Intonation is one of these temperaments and it comes from the natural vibration 'nodes' on a string. You can chime at different portions of the string and find 1/3, 1/2 and other fractions. Those fractions are NOT usually the same as those you'd find with equally dividing that string into 12 segments.

Now for CENTS . . .
A CENT, as Jon correctly pointed out, is 1/100th of a semitone (a fret's distance). The actual number of Hertz represented by a cent varies slightly from the low octaves to the high octaves, but, for our purposes of using a tuner and understanding how the numbers for ET, JI, and other tuning standards relate to each other, 4cents/Hz works fine. Remember that Hz DOES NOT INDICATE THE FREQUENCY OF VIBRATION OF THE NOTE -- It is the calibration standard to which we set the tuner.

If you want to see the actual vibration frequencies of various instruments -- click here for a chart showing the lowest and highest notes on piano, guitar, and pedal steel
NOTE: The lowest pedal steel note listed is the low G# on the bottom string of the E9/B6 Universal 12 string tuning.

click here for more general information

Hope this doesn't just confuse more. Don't hesitate to ask questions.
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John Groover McDuffie · From: LA California, USA

If you look at the indicator dial on a Boss TU12 you will see that it is labeled in both HZ and cents.

(Britt and subsequent posters are correct in pointing out that the Hz reading in this case is a relative one, referring to where you tune your A"440" note.)

This subject is not that complicated but it can be difficult to explain in simple terms.

Nic du Toit · From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa

Here is a simpler way. i hope this answers your original question.
If you use it, please send a donation to Fran Newman.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Gee, guys, I thought my first post was pretty succinct. How's this to complete it:

"Cents", as in some financial language, are percentage points. "Ten cents flat of A" means "flat by ten percent of the distance to Ab". How many Hertz this is is different for every note.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Alas, Nic, not everyone agrees with Jeff's numbers.

But that's a whole 'nother many, many threads!

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Glad you posted that Nic.

Jeff sent me that chart long ago. And I was going to try and find it. You saved me that trouble.

Just yesterday, I received a Precision Strobe Tuner "4" for evaluation. I want to program in Jeff's "offsets" and see how it all comes out.

We should remember however, that what works for one does not work for all.

Cabinet drop, string gauges, various overtones built into specific PSG's, etc, etc, mean that a "set" offset is not going to satisfy everyone.

On the other hand, I know of NO one more qualified to make a chart like that than Jeff.

So UNLESS you are not satisfied with it, please begin there. Then if you have to tweak one or more to taste, at least it is better than anything else I know of.

Incidently, this chart is missing his equally good C6 setup.

So call Fran and order one if you want a "better", simpler way?

May Jesus rest Jeff's soul,

carl
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Here's the thing. Electronic tuners were originally designed to tune instruments in equal temperament (ET) to a tuning reference standard. A common standard is A=440 Hz, used by most popular music. Another is A=442 Hz, used in modern orchestral music.

Hz is "cycles per second" - the number of times that a string vibrates per second. A=440 Hz only really applies to one A note. For all other notes, tuning to 440 on the meter means that you are tuning ET to the A=440 Hz reference standard.

Cents are used to measure intervals. An ET semitone is 100 cents. If a meter measures cents, it will have a calibration feature to set the reference standard. You calibrate to A=440 (usually), and then the cents scale tells you how far you are from the ET scale of the A=440 Hz standard.

I always prefer a meter calibrated in cents because cents is the term used in temperament mathematics. When you start to study just intonation, meantone, etc. they never talk about Hz. Everything is in cents.
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David Doggett · Posted 22 Aug 2008 9:52 am

On needle meters like the Boss, it is easier to deal with Hz than cents, simply because there is a mark every Hz, but the cents are only marked every 5 cents. This is not exactly an accident. There is a rule of thumb that +/-5 cents (1.25 Hz in the vicinity of 440) is close enough to the target note while playing. It is easier for me to remember that I want my 3rds about 3 Hz below the standard I am using for my roots, than to remember 14 cents. And if I am within 1 Hz (4 cents) of my target it will sound fine. All those 0.5 Hz and 2 cent adjustments in the Newman tuning are purely theoretical, and have no practical value. And that 0.2 cents and 0.02 cents accuracy some tuner manufacturers brag about is just silly. 5 cent accuracy is passable, and it is very difficult for most of us to hear less than 2 or 3 cents even if we are listening carefully in a quiet room at home. And how precise can you tune with your tuning keys? It is very difficult to get most tuners within 0.5 Hz or 2 cents of your target without overshooting. And then the warmth of your hands can change a string by several cents, likewise bar pressure. People need to have some practical perspective when using these numbers.

Darren James · From: Alabama, USA

Ok, so I've got a Korg CA-20 tuner (I think thats the number) and it has the digital needle. Do I change the 440 setting to another number and then tune to the needle settings shown? I know the tuner won't do 442.5, but it will do 442. So in that case is trying to use that chart hopeless unless I get another tuner? As a new player, this tuning business is complicated.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

At the risk of stating the obvious, but for the sake of completeness

Etymologically, the word cent derives from the Latin word centum meaning hundred.- Wikipedia

e.g.
centimeter = 100 per meter
cent = 100 per dollar dollar, 100 per semitone
centipede = 100 leg pairs (not always the case)
centennial = 100 years

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"If you divide the octaves equally into 12 parts"
I've got a Saz here at home, gifted to me from a Turkish friend. 15 notes to the octave! Hmmm,,, I need a new tuner......

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

As some of you may know, I am evaluting two "tuners" in St. Louis. The Peterson and the Precision Strobe Tuner-4. I intend to put them though a rigid A/B test.

Out of the graciousness of Mr Bill Campell, (the builder of the PST-4), he sent me one to try out, evaluate AND take to St. Louis. For which I am indeed grateful.

Never having dealt personally with any strobe type tuner, I was totally knocked out the moment I turned it on last night at how it locks on to a picked string within just a split second.

For those of you who have never seen a strobe type tuner, ya gotta see this.

I have spent most of this morning studying the extensive owner's manual, and messing with several of its features.

And while I have had the Jeff Newman "offsets" (posted above) for yrs, I had never used them. So I programmed them into two of the PST-4's 40 offsets.

And it only took me moments to tune the entire open strings and all of the pedals and knee lever changes without even turning my amp on. So needless to say I am most impressed.

But I intend fully to do the same thing to the Peterson. I will buy the one that overall I feel is the best for my needs. At age 76 it is not uncommon for my ears to play tricks on me.

One of the MOST pleasant things of all is; I have always had a problem tuning the 5th pedal. I can't believe how much nicer that D9th chord sounds now after tuning it to Jeff's numbers.

I feel sure I am going to find other goodies as well.

Praise Jesus for those that were given the creative ideas to make our lives better.

Anyway, if you wanna see these tuners, please come by the Excel room and lets really put them sapsuckers through a test. I would be honored to have you.

I can't be there on Sunday.

c.
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Mitch Ellis · From: Collins, Mississippi USA

For the most part, I still don't understand. I'm reading words that I don't know the meaning of even after they're explained. For example, one post said that the word "semitone" meant the distance from one fret to another. I thought that was called a "halftone." I did understand Jon Light's post or at least the principle of it. As far as the mathmatics, it's all Greek. Before any of you invest any more of your time in me, I'll give you a quick run-down of my musical background, after which you may decide that it's a lost cause and move on to another thread. Very Happy

I got my first guitar when I was fourteen. It was a beginners sized Acoustic. My parents got it for me for Christmas and it didn't come with a tuner. Since there were no other musicians around me, I didn't know that there was even such a thing as a guitar tuner. When a string started to sound "funny," I would just turn the key until it started sounding right and keep playing . I was so musically ignorant that I just assumed all musicians tuned their guitars this way. When I did start playing with other musicians, my guitar sounded like theirs, so I never gave it another thought. For the first fifteen years, I never had a tuner. I got my very first steel nine years ago. After the salesman showed me how to put it in the case and take it apart, He told me that I would need a tuner. He sold me a BOSS TU-12H tuner. When I asked how to use it, he gave me the Jeff Newmen tuning chart. He then told me to put the needle on the tuner wherever the chart says to. He told me that was how most steel players tuned. I paid him, thanked him, and walked out with my very first steel and my new-fanggled tuning gadget. Very Happy

I still use the same tuner and the chart. Only now when I'm playing live, if a string starts to sound "funny," I use my ear until it sounds right. If I'm reading my tuner correctly, when the needle is on 438 hertz, that's about the equivalent of 8-12 cents "more or less" flat. Is this correct? Thank you all for your time and patience. When I consider how little I know about music, I sometimes wonder how I can even play an instrument. Thank you all again.
Mitch

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Mitch, "semi" means "half". "Semitone" and "half tone" mean the same.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

The word "semi" means half.

So a semitone and half tone is the same thing.

1 HZ shift is the same as 4 cents shift.

So 439 is 1 HZ flat of 440.

Which means it is 4 cents flat.

442 is 2 HZ sharp of 440

Which means it is 8 cents sharp

338 and 1/2 is 1 and 1/2 HZ flat of 440

Which means it is 6 cents flat.

Finally, IF you can get your guitar in tune using your ear, DO IT!

The best tuned steels are those that have NO problem using their ears.

It is only those of us that are deficient in this gift, that need external help. I would conjecture that Jerry Byrd was THE world's greatest at this. I have seen him go completely from one tuning to another in a flash, and it appeared to my ears it was DEAD on. He rarely even backed up and tweaked.

I know of NO one on earth that was as gifted as Jerry Byrd, when it comes to music. May Jesus rest his soul.

hope this helps,

c.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Although I relate 4 cents to 1 HZ, I've got a chart sent to me from "Turbo Tuner" (another solid state strobe type) and it references 3.8 cents to 1 HZ.

I have one of the Turbo Tuner ST-122 models (along with a Strobe O Flip) and the Turbo Tuner which can be 100% programmable for what you want. I programmed the Turbo Tuner using the 3.8 cent "standard" and compared it to my Stobe O Flip which is programmed with the 4 cents "standard". To my ears the 4 cents "standard" sounded more in tune - maybe because I'm used to that. But the Turbo Tuner has one advantage, you can program for example F#4 to one setting and F#3 to another, you can't do that with the Strobe O Flip, you only get to set one F# (for example) in each program.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Jack,

You are correct. 4HZ is NOT exact. If you have access to the complete chart, you will notice this. But for all practical purposes 4 is a good number.

As to tuners that allow a difference in the tuning of octave notes, the PST-4 does that. In fact:

This tuner offers 40 discrete, 88 note banks of memory. And each bank is individually programmable over all 88 notes in that bank.

Last night and today I programmed 3 of the banks:

1. The Jeff Newman system for Universal PSG's

2. My own system

3. Jeff Newman's C6 setup.

It took some time to go thru the steps. But like all things, it gets faster once you get used to it.

And I was able to do just what you are talking about, since EACH note in EACH octave is separately programmable within EACH bank.

I can't wait to check out the Peterson.

c.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Don Sulesky · From: Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH

The strobo flip uses 3.9 cents to 1 hertz.
Seems to me either of the three is so close the human ear can't hear the difference.
I read somewhere years ago the human ear can't hear a pitch change less than 2 cents.
Because I use the strobo flip I calculated all my settings using the 3.9 number whether it is right or wrong all I know is my steel sounds fine to me.
I also don't see the need for having a different cents number for the same note on a different string.
I tune all my F#s the same and when I press my pedals and check it with my 1st & 7th strings they are in tune with eachother. Maybe it's because I tune my F# on my 4th string with both B & C pressed.
Don

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