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Topic: Placement of Fret Markers |
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 15 Aug 2008 2:53 pm |
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On all steel-strung guitars, banjos, pedal steels, banjos and boujukis (to name a few), fret markings are always at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 12th frets. I don't know why, because the instruments are tuned differently. On mandolines the markings are at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th and 12th frets.
Personally, I find that when I'm playing steel I tend to play so that the third fret is the tonic, which means E in C6 tuning, or G in E9 tuning. I need a quick reference to the dominant, subdominant, and octave, which means that for me the position markers would be best on the 3rd, 8th, 10th and 15th frets.
A lot of old lap steels have a diagonal pattern marked out on the fingerboard.
Anyone got any ideas as to the logic of it ? Is it just traditional, handed down from the guitar ? |
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Bob Knight
From:
Bowling Green KY
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Posted 15 Aug 2008 3:45 pm
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Alan,
I think if you double check, you will find E at the 4th fret on a C tuning? 
Just being observant, 
Bob |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Aug 2008 5:33 pm
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| Quote: |
| I need a quick reference to the dominant, subdominant, and octave... |
Easy; 5 frets up, 7 frets up, 12 frets up. Actually, you only have to remember (or mark) the dom and sub-dom. The octave is a no-brainer if you just consider your 12th fret the same as the nut, 3 frets above the nut is the same chord as 3 frets above the 12th fret.
Though it may be tempting to modify your guitar and re-arrange the markers to suit yourself, it's actually a crutch. And that "crutch" (once you get used to it) will hamper you on every other instrument you try to play. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 15 Aug 2008 6:31 pm
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| Bob Knight wrote: |
...I think if you double check, you will find E at the 4th fret on a C tuning? ...
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Yes Bob, of course you're right. A case of mindslip there... 
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ...Easy; 5 frets up, 7 frets up, 12 frets up. |
Yes, I know where the frets are. I've been playing nearly 50 years.  I was just suggesting that it would be nice to have a visual indication of the dominant and subdominant. Actually, most of the time I'm playing I don't look at the fingerboard. I can play by ear.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ...Though it may be tempting to modify your guitar and re-arrange the markers to suit yourself, it's actually a crutch. And that "crutch" (once you get used to it) will hamper you on every other instrument you try to play. |
Well I play the guitar, banjo, mandoline, lute, cittern, lauto, sitar, mountain dulcimer, autoharp, hammer dulcimer, fiddle, viola, 'cello, 10-string mediaeval guitar, hummel, bouzuki, tromba marina, strohfidl, crwth, dobro, lap steel, pedal steel, bajo sexto, theorbo, trichordia, cuatro, to mention just a few. I don't get confused with the different tunings or the fret positions.
All I'm suggesting is that, on the steel guitar, it would be useful to have markers on the dominant and subdominant. If it was just a matter of cribbing you could just stick tape on the fretboard, or you could do like the makers of the Melobar did and create a fingerboard so confusing not even a seasoned musician could understand it....  |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 17 Aug 2008 8:23 pm Re: Placement of Fret Markers
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| Alan Brookes wrote: |
| On all steel-strung guitars, banjos, pedal steels, banjos and boujukis (to name a few), fret markings are always at the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th and 12th frets...I need a quick reference to the dominant, subdominant, and octave...Anyone got any ideas as to the logic of it ? Is it just traditional, handed down from the guitar ? |
Yeah, it is obviously handed down from the guitar. And the markers are there for the dominant (V) and subdominant (IV), just like you ask for. But these markers are in relation to the nut. And obviously they can only work for one key. On guitar and E9 pedal steel, that key is E. On C6, it is C. The markers are exactly where they should be. For all other keys, the markers are just guideposts. You have to find the IV and V in relation to them. How would the people in the dim past who put the first markers on know that hundreds of years later you would prefer the key of G to the key of E? In Spanish and Gypsy guitar music (the people who gave us the guitar), E is a main key, G not so much. "The people's key of G" seems to be a unique preference in Irish music (because of the fiddle and its G string?), and thus also for the Scotch-Irish derived Old Tyme, country, and bluegrass. It is such a strong key in those genres that banjos and Dobros are tuned to open G. But in other genres, such as jazz and blues, G is not such a common key. And in classical music, G is no more popular than C or F. So outside of playing guitar in E, the markers are just a nice set of symetrical markers to use as universal guideposts. Many classical and flamenco guitars have no markers at all. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 17 Aug 2008 8:32 pm Crutch?
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I had an old Fender 1000 pedal steel, and there was a little nail at the 17th fret (holding down the fret board)
When I bought a new Shobud, I was getting lost on many songs until I realised I was looking for that little nail head. I painted a small red dot at that position and the problem was fixed.
Dom |
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John DeBoalt
From:
Harrisville New York USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 5:27 am
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I have this cheap Morrell lap steel. The fret markers are rectangles with half the rectangle shaded in on the diagonal. In semi lit rooms the neck became a blurr. I bought some smiley face dots, and stuck them to the neck double dotting the 9th, 12th, and 19th fret markers. That solved my problem, as the lap now shared the same markings as my reso. John D.
_________________
Equipment: Carter D10, Zum Stage1,
Wechter Scheernhorn Reso, Deneve Reso, Fender Jazzmaster, Martin D16, Walker Stereo Steel amp, TC Electronics M One effects unit, JBL 15" speaker cabs,Peavey Nashville 1000,Peavey Revoloution 112, Morrell Lap Steel, Boss DD3 delay,others |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 6:39 am Re: Placement of Fret Markers
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| ...How would the people in the dim past who put the first markers on know that hundreds of years later you would prefer the key of G to the key of E?... |
Yes, everything Dave said is absolutely right. The guitar was originally played mostly in E. No matter where you put the markers they would only be good for two keys (if you include the relative minor). I once built a lap steel and put the markers where I wanted them, but found that I'd become so used to them being in the traditional position that it was throwing me out !   |
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Greg Vincent
From:
Folsom, CA USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 7:02 am
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Seems like most banjos and ukuleles have a marker on the 10th fret, rather than on the 9th.
(Please spare me the banjo jokes.)
Why on earth would that be??? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 7:17 am
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"Why on earth would that be???"
Old-fashioned. I believe that most banjos and guitars from the 19th century were marked at the 10th fret. My S.S.Stewart was marked at the 10th. It was from 1886. My early Mastertone was also marked there, but I think that may have been at the request of an older customer, as by then, most markers were at the 9th fret. |
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Greg Vincent
From:
Folsom, CA USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 10:48 am
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Interesting...
So I wonder why that "old-fashioned" tradition of marking the 10th fret has carried over into modern-day banjos & ukes, but died off (moving to the 9th fret) in guitars? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 10:51 am
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| alan...on your steel, make some markers on the dominant and sub-dominant frets! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 11:46 am
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| Alan, you can also get tiny, stick-on jewels for next to nothing at a craft store. Good for when the lights are low. Old Danny Gatton trick. |
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Paul Norman
From:
Washington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 11:51 am
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I am glad a steel is marked that way because I played
lead 6 string for years before going to steel and it
helped me a lot to know the markings. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 2:43 pm
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There is an old 40+ yr old story that went around, that I think was true.
As the story goes, "Buddy Emmons, got so upset at people trying to play his PSG at the opry, he removed the fret boards entirely".
So forget about the "fret markers". This had not a single fret!
And he played it, as though nothing was wrong.
If my memory serves me right, he played this guitar on the stage of the ISGC one year.
But then Buddy is uniquely gifted. So don' try that on live TV, unless you have nerves of steel!
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 8:51 pm
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C. Dixon got me thinking with his 4o year old story... Are there any "blind" steel guitarists?
We know of course many famous blind piano players (Stevie wonder, Ray charles and others) And there have been many gifted blind guitarists as well.
But has anyone seen or heard of a blind (Sight Impaired) steel guitarist?
Dom |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2008 9:05 pm
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Forumite Tom Kaufman from Denton, Md. is an excellent blind steeler. He plays with a great band called the Jones Boys (not George's band). He is
also a fine lead guitarist and fiddler.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 19 Aug 2008 6:24 am
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| I think most of us play blind to a certain extent. We don't look at the fingerboard all the time. Close your eyes and see how much it affects your playing. When we slide from one note to another our brain tells us when we've reached the right note. Of course it's a little more difficult when we jump from one note to another... |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 19 Aug 2008 6:32 am
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And what about Cello, Viola, Violin, upright Bass, and Trombone players, etc.
For the life of me, I can not fathom that talent. And of these, the trombone player is the most mystifying in my experiences of watching thm.
Most all have seen them in big bands and marching bands and that right arm is moving drastically, yet it appears with the greatest of eeeze! And to my ears, they sound dead on in most cases
Praise Jesus for such awesome gifts.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 19 Aug 2008 6:39 pm
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| C Dixon wrote: |
| ...Praise Jesus for such awesome gifts... |
I didn't realise Jesus played the cello.
But seriously, the cello is easier to play than the fiddle, and the bass even easier, because there's more space between the notes. On the bass you can be a little out of position and it won't be too noticable.
On pedal steel, when you have a full tone on a pedal and you push it half way in order to get a semitone you pretty well have to do it by ear. That takes as much talent as remembering with the frets are. |
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