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Topic: Universal 12 E9/B6 for a newbie to PSG??? |
Johnne Lee Ables
From: Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 9:33 am
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Hi Folks,
I did a 'search' in an attempt answer this question on my own. But, alas...
I'd appreciate any input regarding the appropriateness of this tuning for me. My first instrument was lap steel many years ago. I became adequate enough to play out locally with the family band. Then, a member of the family lost a couple of left hand fingers in a dally accident and I inherited the guitar and banjo.
I've never played a PSG, but I've played something or other off and on for years and years. I have extremely eclectic tastes in music. My dearly Beloved Wife plays saxophone.
What constitutes a 'standard' E9/B6 tuning copedent?
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks,
Johnne Lee
PS - A great BIG "Thanks" to b0b for helping me access the 'Forum'! |
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chris ivey
From: california (deceased)
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 9:59 am
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i think getting in on the ground floor with a universal 12 is the way to go. you don't have to relearn anything and the awkwardness of changing from a d10 is not there. just get one and start banging away...it should be capable of playing any type of music you wish. |
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Rick Nicklas
From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 10:08 am
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Larry Bell's site ... http://www.larrybell.org/id5.htm ... is a great source of information, history and tuning for the Universal-12. |
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Johnne Lee Ables
From: Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 10:27 am Thanks Chris and Rick....
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Chris - I think your advice is great and I am starting to seriously look for a U12.
Rick - Larry has a great site! Thanks!
Johnne Lee |
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Rick Winfield
From: Pickin' beneath the Palmettos
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 10:47 am 12 string axe
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My advice is buy the best one you can afford.
I bought an antique D10 to learn on, and now...it's a problem selling, knowing the uses for a 12 string are all to obvious, for my needs. You'll learn on what you want, no habits to break, and keep it a LONG LONG time! Jeff Newman offers a course for the E9/B6 copedant
Rick |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 10:56 am
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I'm nearly in the same situation. I purchased a Carter Starter a few weeks ago, knowing I would need to upgrade relatively soon once I got my feet wet. After wading around in this forum, I have found that the 12 string universal E9/B6 or U-12, has the left 3 pedals and most of the knee levers which are the same as E9, so much of the education material will still apply. And, when I'm ready I can try other B6 (C6) stuff without having to by a new guitar. From all I can tell as long as you understand it is a bit different than beginning with an E9 single or double neck, it is not so intimidating. I do expect I may encounter a few things I wasn't expecting, but the basics are there which do not scare me away from it. So I should be able to keep going with my E9 for now and don't expect too much troubl eswitching to the U12 once it arrives.
There is also a Jeff Newman course aimed at the E9/B6 12 String Universal tuning which i plan to acquire. Check out the course material at http://www.jeffran.com/courses.php?content=UpFromtheTop _________________ GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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Chuck Snider R.I.P.
From: West Virginia, USA - Morgantown, WV
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 11:02 am
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If you have not already bought a guitar yet and/or amp and other accessories, I would highly recommend watching the For Sale section of this Forum site, it is split up between Instruments and Amps/Accessories. There have been a couple of U12's for sale recently on there at a huge savings from buying new. I have found looooaaaads of very helpful info on this forum!! Take advantage of the knowledge and experience people will share with you. I wish I had known about this before I got into it. Welcome and good luck from another "newbie"!!! _________________ GFI U-12 Ultra Keyless, Carter Black U-12, both with Alumitones, and a sweet '70 Sho-Bud Permanent D-10, NV400 in Rick Johnson cabs, NV112, '73 Vibrosonic in Rick Johnson cabs, Hilton pedal, Steeler's Choice seat, Bessdang Gizmos from Dale Hansen, and a few other widgets and doodads.
I may not sound good, I just don't wanna sound bad. |
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mike nolan
From: Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 11:38 am
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U 12 is a reasonable choice for a new player. You can use most of the instruction material out there, and any good teacher should be able to adapt their instructional method.
I play 10 string guitars myself, but I did play U12 for several years and liked it a lot. I had an old, rather poorly made U12 however, and it was really hard to keep in tune, so in the end i bailed out. One of these days, I'll get another.
There are things that I like better about 10 string E9 and C6.... but that is mostly years of habit.
Go for it, but make sure that you get a fairly modern, well maintained guitar. |
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Johnne Lee Ables
From: Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 12:10 pm Thanks Rick, Chuck and Mike!!!!!!!!!
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You guys are a big help already!!! And, I appreciate it greatly.
I do hope to purchase a quality, modern U12 PSG on this Forum. I'd never buy off Ebay or CL unless I could see the instrument.
I have to admit I am concerned about tuning a PSG! I've never had a problem with tuning a guitar, banjo or my old lap steel, but the PSG is REALLY complex. (And I don't claim to be a mechanic.)
I'll keep looking and I'll use that 'Search' function here on the Forum!
Johnne Lee |
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Larry Bell
From: Englewood, Florida
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 1:08 pm
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I may not be a good one to ask since I've been playing a 12-string universal tuning for more than 35 years and never really played a S-10 or D-10 for more than a few months. But I won't let that prevent me from commenting.
As with any decision, there are pros and cons on either side. To me, the most important pro for the U12 is the relationship between the 9th and the 6th tunings. Most double neck players never even stop to think about commonalities between E9 and C6. There are many. While learning to play the sixth tuning, the U12 allows the player to use familiar positions -- C6 at the first fret with the E to D# lever or the third fret with A+B. You will find that those positions that come from E9 are basic to swing playing and can be further elaborated using ALL the changes on your guitar (if appropriate).
For example, a lot of C6 players pull A (the 6th tone) to Bb (the b7 tone), converting C6 to C7. Well, most any E9 player knows that one of the basic positions for a Dom7 chord (like C7) is to combine the B pedal (G# to A) with the E to D# lever, raising the 6th to a b7. That C6 knee lever is a 'gimme' with the U12 tuning -- it is a standard E9 pedal change that can fit right in with the B6 functions.
(the 'con' is that it's on a pedal rather than a lever, as most C6 players use it) and combining with non-adjacent pedals may require two feet, but most C6 players use both feet on the pedals anyway).
Once you begin looking at how the C6 changes relate to the universal tuning, it's easy to fit the new concepts into your thinking about the E9 tuning. You will see that you can often go back and forth between the A+B position and the E to D# position and even use the E9 pedals and levers in the B6 context. THAT, TO ME IS WORTH THE PRICE OF ADMISSION. Rather than approaching C6 as a 'whole 'nother animal' as most D-10 players do, you can see one big tuning with not only C6, but the A6 tuning (A+B pedals), the E7 or E9 tuning, and lots of other stuff right there under your nose.
One other 'con' that bugs us all is tuning. You have many more compromises to make in finding tuning offsets that 'play well together'. Certainly not impossible -- all us U12 players have our own approach -- but more difficult that tuning E9 on one neck and C6 on another. For example, tuning E9 to Just Intonation and C6 to Equal Temperament is just not possible on the U12. My website has some information you may find useful for figuring out all this tuning stuff. It's not as difficult as it seems.
Don't hesitate to ask questions. EMail me offline if you want to discuss this stuff in more depth. Enjoy the U12. It's a great way to go. _________________ Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12 |
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Johnne Lee Ables
From: Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 1:17 pm WOW, Mr. Bell...
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Hey Larry,
Thanks for the great info! I think I will take you up on the 'off-line' communication offer. A most gracious offer!
Thanks again,
Johnne Lee |
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David Doggett
From: Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 1:20 pm
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A 12-string E9/B6 universal is only slightly more challenging for a beginner than a 10-string E9. The top 8 strings are exactly the same. The 9th string is available on a lever, and is not used much in beginner instruction material anyway. And the standard E9 string 10 will be your string 9. Just concentrate on the top 9 strings at first, and you will eventually learn what to do with the extra low strings, which are simply octaves below the upper strings. However, I strongly advise you to try to find a uni player to help you get started with a few lessons and advice on how to tune the instrument. But if one is not available, and you have questions or problems, just come on the Forum and ask for help. Good luck. |
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Michael Strauss
From: Delray Beach,Florida
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 1:38 pm
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I got my Carter U12 last year and have no regrets. Everything everyone has said is right. I'm still in E9 learning mode and all the training material works just fine. I'm on the raod 4 days a week and bring a 6 string lap steel, when I'm home I hit a knee lever go up a fret and apply everything I learned during the with problem (and no pedals). In time I will learn, more but as a beginner it's great, the best of both worlds. IMHO _________________ Carter S-12U, Sho-Bud LGD (80's), Fender Jazz King, Korg Pandora Toneworks PX4D, Modulus Q6, Ampeg B5R, Lapstick Travel Guitar mod to lapsteel |
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Billy Carr
From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 10 Aug 2008 4:35 pm psg
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Just my opinion here. I play U-12's from time to time and don't have a problem. One thing that helped me a lot was I had learned and studied the C6th tuning for years. Learning the E9th with just the basic 3 & 4 set up is more than most beginners can do for a while. When you lower the E's and go into the B6th tuning, it's a new ballgame, especially if a player is not familiar with a lot of C6th. Not trying to discourage anyone from going the U12 route but as I stated, just my opinion here. Good luck with whatever you get. |
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Ron Randall
From: Dallas, Texas, USA
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