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Author Topic:  Advice on using a condensor mic for band
Bob Watson


From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
Post  Posted 3 Aug 2008 8:34 pm    
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I've been playing Dobro with a Bluegrass band for the last year and up to now we have all been using either pickups in our instruments or microphones. One of the guys just picked up an Audio Technica AT4033 condenser mic and we have been using it to mic the whole band with, like they did in the days of old. I was wondering if any of you have any experience using one mic for the whole band. I am hoping that someone with experience could give me some tips on how to get the maximum volume. Can you use the graphic equalizer to cut out the frequencies that are feeding back, thus being able to turn it up more? Does the amount of power the P.A. has effect how much volume you can get out of the mic without it feeding back. Would using two AT4033's give us more volume? I know that we won't be able to use this setup on all of our gigs, but all of us like the overall sound better using this setup. The only negative is trying to get the band louder out front without feedback. Any wisdom or comments will be greatly appreciated.
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Lynn Oliver


From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2008 12:04 am    
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I apologize in advance for the length.

I do the sound for my band, and we've used various permutations from a single 4033 on up.

If by max volume you mean max gain before feedback, the two main things you can work with are speaker placement and reducing problem frequencies.

Since our sound system runs largely unattended, I'm using an automatic feedback suppression system that locates and notches out any frequencies that are feeding back. I generally set it up with eight fixed filters, which are set during initial system setup, and four auto filters that catch things that happen live. With practice you can achieve the same thing with a good 31 band EQ, although the filters tend to be wider, so you can lose more of the audio.

The house speakers need to be up off the floor (except for subs) and well in front of the mic if possible. Depending on the venue you may not be able to use floor monitors with a single mic.

Each time you add an open mic to the setup, you reduce your max gain by 3dB, so two 4033's are not necessarily better than one.

To get decent volume you need to be close to the mic. Also remember that the sensitivity is down approximately 6dB to the sides, so you have to work out your choreography carefully. And the musicians need to be able to listen and balance the sound by varying individual dynamics. It helps if you draw a response curve on the floor around the mic, so people can get used to where they need to stand.

Some of the problems I've had to deal with:
1. The fiddle disappears when not directly in front of the mic taking a break. Our fiddle player uses a classical position, so most of the sound is directed upwards and is not picked up well when away from the mic. We resolved this by using a Schertler contact mic on the fiddle, mixed in at a lower volume than the mic.
2. When our lead singer/guitarist is at the mic the guitar is too low in the mix. Ideally the guitar player will fix this by playing louder, but ours didn't, so for some venues I add a small diaphragm condenser below the 4033.
3. A big difference in height. At one time in our band the heights ranged from 6'3" to just over 5', and the short mandolin player had trouble "reaching" the mic. Depending on the venue, I added a second 4033, a second small condenser, or used a pickup on the mando.

I'll note that the Del McCoury band, who a lot of bluegrass band model after in terms of single mic performances, has gone from one to two to three--and the last time I saw them live--four mics. And despite the fact that Del has been using 4033's for a while (and I have two of 'em), the 4033 turns out not to necessarily be the best choice for this application.

As to power vs feedback, the simple answer is no, more power won't help you get more volume. Think of it this way: if you are feeding back at "7" now, when you add power you may feeding back at "4". Unless your gain structure is not set up correctly and you are creating a lot of distortion... in which case you could possibly buy your way out of the problem with more power.

My life as a sound man got much easier when I added a speaker processor to the system. I have it adjusted to give a nominal flat response from all the speakers, and I can sometimes fix poor speaker placement by adding a slight delay to FOH. Plus it has a really good feedback suppressor that can combine filters on the fly. Since I've been using it I've been able to use floor monitors at all our normal venues.
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Stephen Gambrell

 

From:
Over there
Post  Posted 4 Aug 2008 2:42 am    
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Lynn, my experience is much like yours. I bought a 4033 years ago, for recording, but after seeing Doyle Lawson using one, for the whole band, we thought we'd give it a try. As you say, get the mains up, and out front. And we've had pretty good luck setting the mike height at about 5&1/2 feet, and moving in and out. Never use monitors anymore, and setup time is about 15 minutes! The feedback thing I use is a little box, and I can't remember who made it. Everybody has to be totally quiet, press one button on the front, and it sweeps out the ringing frequencies. But sure as the world, when it gets to 2K or so, somebody's gonna shriek, and you gotta start all over Mad Mad Mad
Looks good too, with everybody working that one mike!
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Bob Watson


From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2008 5:50 pm    
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Lynn, Stephen, thanks for the replies. I'll probably look into a feedback buster. Peavey makes one called the "Feedback Ferret". I would be curious to know what kind either of you are using. There is a new Peavey powered mixer that has a room anilyzer and a feedback ferret built into it that I might consider getting further on down the line. It is a 12 channel board so if we had to plug in it would be a breaze. I really like the sound using one condenser mic gives us. Its more natural sounding. I too agree that it is a good visual for the audience to watch the band working the mic, and it also seems to make us comunicate better musically. It is a little hard to remember that the audience can hear every comment you make on stage Rolling Eyes . Thanks again for your input.
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Lynn Oliver


From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2008 8:16 pm    
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I started out with a Mackie 808M powered mixer and Mackie C300i speakers. With no other place in the signal path for the feedback suppression I used a Sabine FBX Solo SM820 feedback eliminator for each mic. After the band spent some time in the recording studio I realized that our live sound wasn't as good as it needed to be and upgraded the system.

The upgraded system uses an Allen&Heath Mixwizard 3 16:2 mixer, a dbx Driverack 260 speaker processor, a pair of Yorkville NX550P powered main speakers and a pair of RCF ART310-A powered monitors. The DR 260 has a real-time analyzer as well as time delays, crossovers, compressors, graphic EQ, parametric EQ, feedback suppression etc.

The improvement in live sound was dramatic.
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Brad Bechtel


From:
San Francisco, CA
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2008 8:37 am    
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Moved to Electronics from Steel Without Pedals.
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Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars
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Brian McGaughey


From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
Post  Posted 8 Aug 2008 1:15 pm    
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Bob,

Lynn has some great points. I'll add a bit. Although our band is not exclusively acoustic as I assume yours is, my info may still be helpful.

I do sound for our band. For feedback suppression and room eq I've recently added a similar DBX unit to the one Lynn mentioned to my rack and it works great. The DBX driverack PA is less $$$ than the 260 that Lynn mentioned and offers a great all-in-one speaker management system. A "wizard" allows you to generate pink noise through your system, "listen" with a reference mic plugged into the unit and it'll set one of several pre-programmed eq curves in about a minute or less. Then a "wizard" will notch feedback frequencies out as you slowly turn up the system and ring it out.

http://www.dbxpro.com/PA/PA.htm

Also the DBX driverack pa offers stereo compression, peak limiting, active crossovers with some presets for common live club sized speaker systems and sub-harmonic synthesis for really moving some air with a subwoofer. Once you've set this up in a particular room you can save the settings and call it up the next time you come in. Save it right away as the last time I used mine we blew a breaker (damn lights!) and I had to start over. I didn't pink the room after starting over because it was full of guests!

I highly recommend this. You can find 'em used on fleabay anyday for about $350-$400, and a new dbx reference mic is about $100.
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Lynn Oliver


From:
Redmond, Washington USA * R.I.P.
Post  Posted 8 Aug 2008 2:56 pm    
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I use the RTA on the Driverack to "flatten" the speaker response. That basically means putting the speakers in a neutral environment (outside away from buildings is one way) and letting the real time analyzer adjust the GEQ for flat response.

Then I transfer the GEQ settings to the parametric EQ, which frees up the graphic EQ for room adjustments. That becomes my default setup.

Generally I don't use the RTA to attempt to adjust for the room because nodes occur at different frequencies at different spots, so moving the reference mic a few feet often gives a totally different result. Even without moving the mic the results are often not repeatable.

Instead I listen at various audience positions and make adjustments with the GEQ if they are needed. This tends to give better results, and without the need to flood the room with pink noise at performance volume.

A nice feature of the 260 is the ability to see and control all the settings from a computer. These devices have a lot of functions built in, and it is a lot easier to deal with when you can hook up a laptop.

A drawback to either unit is that they are 2 input, 6 output devices. I use one input for the house mix and the second for the monitor mix; that means I can only use a single mix for all the monitors. With a single-mic orientation that ends up being just fine.
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Brian McGaughey


From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
Post  Posted 8 Aug 2008 3:19 pm    
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Lynn,

My approach in implementing my driverack is to let the RTA be my ears, which are never available for any length of time from the audience position. I do sound, set up my drums and set up my steel and if I'm lucky I've got the time to double check my steel tuning before we start! Wink

You've got a well thought out approach...and I'm sure the laptop interface helps. Your 260 method on the driverack unit would require some strong "readers"...

Brian
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Jim Bates

 

From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 9 Aug 2008 7:36 am    
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I use a AKG C1000S in the normal cardiod pattern setting, which does NOT cause as much feedback as the 'narrow' pateren. As long as the monitor closest to me was turned down on my mike, AND the mains are in front of me, AND I am not next to the drummer or bass amp, I always had plenty of volume with no feedback.

If you are wanting to hear the dobro onstage as loud as the lead guitar player or bass -- forget about it! The resonator cone acts like like a large diaphragm microphone, so if it starts vibrating from the other instruments you can get feedback started.

Yes, you can adjust all sorts of filters to avoid feedback, but be careful that you don't destroy the dobro sound quality.

Thanx,
Jim
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