| Author |
Topic: Rack mount processors |
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2008 1:53 pm |
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| I'm looking to expand my options for more experimental music. Anyone have an opinion on a good rack mount unit - say, TC Electronics' G Major or the pricey Fireworx? I might need to have a separate distortion unit (G Major doesn't have one), but there might be a world of possibilities in a processor that wouldn't require a load of switches. As with my post for distortion/fuzz, I'd love to hear from anyone familiar with these; I know I may need to try something out, but just like with the stomp boxes, I simply can't afford to sample a ton; a solid review can certainly give me direction. Thanks very much. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 8:51 am
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| Eventide H8000 |
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Ron Randall
From:
Dallas, Texas, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 2:20 pm
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| chas knows. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 3:11 pm I figured.
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Yes, I would think Chas does indeed know, given the superb work he has done on his own CDs.
Chas, I have in fact sent you a private message, if you have time to check it.
Thanks for the help, guys. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 3:34 pm Really??!!
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| I cannot seem to find any solid information as to whether the H8000 (sans suffix) is still available. There is an H8000FW, but that's $5500 and well out of my range, let alone how I could find the time to check out that many presets and options. Are there other (affordable) quality options anyone would recommend? A guitarist and a drummer both told me that as far as processors with a huge range of presets, "been there, done that", saying that it's more options than you can reasonably manage, and that too many of those presets are just plain dumb. I don't know - uses might be somewhat limited in many contexts, but I'd still be interested in doing away with cheap stomp boxes and having one really fine processor in their place. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2008 7:05 pm
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| Quote: |
| well out of my range, let alone how I could find the time to check out that many presets and options. |
The FW has the firewire I/O. They're expensive, but from my experience, they truly are talent simulators. And they have 2 engines so it's like having 2 "boxes" in a sequence. I also use it as an outboard device with ProTools with the AES/EBU I/O, I didn't get the firewire upgrade.
And presets, when I upgraded mine from an Orville, which I actually liked better, it took me 3 full days to go through the presets and keep in mind, I'm only looking for 10 or so, that don't require much tweaking that I can use on a regular basis.
You might try to find a used H3000.
TC Electronics makes good stuff. I had a Fireworx, but it couldn't begin to compete with the 8K. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2008 11:32 am
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Daniel, got your message. My next Cold Blue release is this fall. I didn't have the resources to take off the 3-4 months needed to record and mix a new album, so we're going to re-release Nakadai on cd with a bonus track. However, there are no master tapes, long story, and I had to transfer from vinyl. Even the test pressings were bad. I first did a test where I just transferred it to 16-44.1 and tried removing the clicks by cutting out no more than .100 -.250 of a second. The 3rd cut, which is 6:26 long, ended up being 30 seconds shorter, which wasn't what I had in mind.
24-44.1 transfer, I have the Waves plug-ins and the click removal then became, several passes of X-Click, a pass of X-Crackle, a pass of X-Noise then over to Izotope-RX where the individuals got attended to. That was just the beginning.
Back to your question, "expansive overdrive/fuzz/distortion". As you know there's a lot of good stuff out there, your SteelDriver is a great unit. That’s what I used for Nakadai and Hollister.
I'm looking for very particular kinds of sounds and in addition to my 12-string power-chord-guitar, I'm also using a bass steel guitar and some of my overdrivers that work great for the 12-string get "cluttered up" with the 8-string bass.
My favorite is the THD Bi/valve:
http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_bivalve30.html
which I have also used as an amplifier for a small club gig where we did ‘30s and ‘40 American Songbook. The thing with the Bi-Valve is you can mismatch the tubes and it will bias itself to whatever you put in there, so you can dial it in to whatever you want. I spent a small fortune on tubes and yes, the RCA blackplates that are not drilled do sound noticeably better.
I also have a rackmount Metasonix Hellfire Modulator and a Peavey Rock Master. The Hellfire is no longer made, but Metasonix: http://www.metasonix.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=36
makes some unusual products like the Butt Probe and the Scrotum Smasher, and what I really want is the G-1000 F*cking F*cker guitar amp, but it’s out of my price range, at the moment.
If you can find a used Rock Master, that’s a nice little box with four 12AX7’s.
My pedal board for live art/metal/noise has a Radial Tonebone Classic , my favorite, a Prescription Electronics COB, a Stamps DriveOmatic XL and a Glitch Computer (lower right). The Glitch computer doesn’t come with a manual because it has a mind of its own and it does what ever it wants to do. It’s great for noise. The Forum probably isn’t the best place to discuss noise music.
The DriveOmatic has 2 channels, regular, if there is such a thing, and a high boost which works well when I’m playing the guitar with glass.
The COB is a very friendly box that the 12-string prefers. All of the overdrives can be chained, and these all go first to the GigaDelay then to the Pigtronics Echolution, which is a really interesting and affordable box.
| Quote: |
| I realize a lot of your sound on recordings is done with studio processing, |
I approach composition for a solo live performance differently than a cd. The live composition is about, what am I going to be able to do, realistically. I did a 52minute solo set in Berlin where I had 3 loopers but I couldn’t bring my H8K and instead used a G-Force (small and light). It meant that I had to work a lot harder. The H8K makes me sound better than I am.
Traditionally, recordings for classical music were about documenting a performance, and in pop music, about what a performance could be. In my studio I have ProTools HD and my technique is similar as to how you would compose for electronic music, which is where I came from. I compose with “phrases”, very similar as to how it was done from the Medieval to the Baroque eras and these are placed and overlaid on each other.
For the guitar tracks, if there is overdrive, I go through the THD to the 8K, if it’s straight, I go through the Revelation Pre with a Demeter Real Reverb and or the 8K. The other instruments (my babies) don’t need delay or reverb, that’s what they sound like. If I do any processing, I’ll run a phrase through a granulator like MetaSynth.
Another rack mount box that I used to use is the Lexicon PCM70 and that might be affordable. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2008 1:23 pm
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| Thanks so much for all your input, Chas. I am looking into the Eventide 3000 - is the Eventide Eclipse a step up from the 3000? It appears to be available through Musician's Friend. I must admit, I am absolutely clueless on all the technical jargon. I'm sure it'll take me a while to understand even a bit of a processor, but I think it might be worth the investment. Is there a good way to speak with you about "noise" music and such, other than the Forum? I have a couple e-mail addresses I could use or if it's even a possibility to speak by phone, I'd be happy to try calling, at your convenience, of course. Whatever works, I appreciate all your help. I'm assuming there aren't a lot of steelers really going out on a limb musically, but then again, I might be surprised! |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2008 9:57 pm
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| Quote: |
| I must admit, I am absolutely clueless on all the technical jargon. |
Daniel, I don't have any experience with the Eclipse. Is there any way you can get some quality time with one, without have to buy it? I was thinking afterwards that the 8K is not a friendly, plug in and play, box and you really have to read the manual, especially to get the signal flow.
I don't have a lot of patience with overly complicated boxes. I usually just learn enough to do what I need to do and ignore the rest. I have friends who understand the inner workings and re-program these things, but for me, there are times when I don't need to know how the brakes work, I just want to push the pedal and stop the car.
Recently, I had a track where I had to get rid of the low rumble and noise from the turntable and then after that, I had to restore the bass bottom, so I used the Maxxbass plugin, but what that gives me is the low bass that doesn't have any real definition. The track is stereo and needs to go digital over to the 8K, get a little "grind" on it and go digital back to ProTools. I could see the signal going in, but I couldn't get it back and after spending a half an hour going through the different screens trying to intuit the flow, I got out the manual and found out that I had to hold down the Program button for over a second, to bring up a screen that had the "button" I needed to click. Then there was a time when I got a panic call from a couple friends, at another studio, that had rented one, without the manual, and couldn't get a signal flow through it.
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| about "noise" music and such, |
I use complicated sounds that border on noise in my stuff, or I prefer to think that I take sounds that are not traditionally thought of as being musical and I put them in a musical environment. I agree with Cage that music is perceived sound. By the same token, once you get beyond 12-tone scales, it opens up a lot of possibilities.
Last jan I did 4 nights with a free improv noise band which is misleading because it's not random noise, it's a blending of lines and textures and it involves more concentration and listening between the players because you're not working with "normal" stuff.
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2008 3:41 am
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Thanks again, Chas. Musician's Friend has the Eclipse, and they offer a 45 day trial period. That sounds pretty good to me, and they have a toll-free number to call, in case I have a problem. I also saw a couple of video clips of the Eclipse at youtube - seems user friendly. I was thinking of a used 3000, but it appears that the Eclipse is supposed to surpass that one. I would definitely want to give something like this a good try before settling on owning it, so I may go with someplace like Musician's Friend (a friend of mine says they're good). And of course I did put "noise" in quotes deliberately, as it does indeed depend on just who's describing the sounds. (Let me know if you're willing to use regular e-mails instead of the Forum - I realize things may get well off topic).
Last edited by Daniel Morris on 2 Aug 2008 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Aug 2008 4:48 pm
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| Quote: |
| I realize things may get well of topic |
It's your post, if you want to go off topic, it's your call. Also, the lurkers may enjoy the conversation, you never know who's in the audience. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2008 1:47 pm
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Well Chas, I suppose you have a point about posting!
As far as your stomp box set-up: I like the samples I've heard of the Echolution. Are those sounds some of the things that a processor might have available (and then some)? Can effects be combined or tweaked on a processor, as they can be with pedals? I'm planning on phoning Eventide to get some real specific answers, but as you've worked with pedals and processors, I'm interested in what is and is not similar or the same. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2008 3:26 pm
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| Hey, Chas, I just got a reply from someone selling an Eventide Eclipse on ebay. He stated that as I have never used a processor, it is indeed difficult to learn. However, he added that reading the manual and messing around with it might prove worthwhile. I also found reviews at www.harmony-central.com (I'm not sure how reliable those are) and both the Eclipse and the H8000 are generally, though not exclusively, rated as somewhat to very difficult to master. Some folks also felt that too many presets are just not useful - or worse - which is pretty much what a drummer and a guitarist had told me about a pricey processor. However, some folks just seem to think it's necessary to spend time with a processor, and none seemed to deny the fantastic sound quality of the effects. I'm still weighing the option of a processor vs. stomp boxes like the Echolution and some others, but your input has proved very helpful indeed. Thanks, Chas. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2008 10:25 am
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Last edited by chas smith R.I.P. on 30 Aug 2008 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2008 12:32 pm
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Dang, that's quite a rig you had then, Chas!!
Per your H8000: do you use it live, as your first choice over pedals? Are there advantages to stomp boxes over a processor, like not having to use our already busy feet? Does a unit like yours allow for changes (live) mid-tune? My sincere thanks for your help. |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2008 12:41 pm
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| Forgot this one: do you find you can more-or-less replicate sounds of boxes like the Echolution on your H8000? Just trying to compare boxes and processors. Thanks again, Chas. |
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Dennis Wallis
From:
Arkansas
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Posted 3 Aug 2008 1:45 pm
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| Roland GP-100 works good.Preamp (with knobs like an anmp for eq,etc) and a fully programmable effects processor (stereo or mono).Quiet and powerful. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2008 11:41 am
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| Quote: |
| Per your H8000: do you use it live, as your first choice over pedals? |
It has to do with which kind of music venue. If it's a band thing, then the load in and load out needs to be as fast and simple as possible. In those situations the pedal board is much more convenient and since we're usually very loud and there's a lot going on, plus I'm wearing serious ear protection, the subtle nuances are inconsequential. I'm also playing non-pedal guitars. It's not the kind of music that needs pedals and they just get in the way.
The tuning on the E9 necks are, low to high: E B E F# G# A B C# E G# D# F#. The E B E, on the bottom, gives me an acceptable power chord. The C neck is all C's and G's for the lower 9, with .090 strings on the bottom, and D E G on the top.
If it's a concert situation, which are few and far between, those are like studio situations, so it's roll in the rack and the speakers, there's time to set up and get everything "right" and it has to sound as good as possible. The 8K can be MIDI controlled, and I do have a pedal board, that I used to use with the G-Force, but the last thing I want to do in those situations is make it more complicated and create an anxiety attack.
If it's a solo concert, I have to use loopers and I'm concentrating on playing each part correctly, especially if I have to sight read the parts. I don't have enough mental bandwidth to push the record and save buttons and/or the program mute button and keep track of a pedal board and be able to "recover" if something isn't going the way it was supposed to.
| Quote: |
| more-or-less replicate sounds of boxes like the Echolution on your H8000? |
The Echolution is used with the Gigadelay to simulate the kinds of programs I would use in the 8K to make a "wash". |
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Johan Jansen
From:
Europe
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Posted 4 Aug 2008 11:46 am
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Buy a used GP100 on Ebay for about $200.
It is perfect for steel!! |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2008 1:45 pm
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| Thanks for the input, gents! So a GP100 for around $200, an Eventide Eclipse for 10 times that, an Eventide H8000 for $5500, or a buncha stomp boxes. Hmmmm, I need time to sort this all out. Chas, any experience with the GP 100? I spoke with a guy at Eventide today, who was cordial and helpful. He said that generally, most guys just want to plug in, with some selected presets, and just go; but he indicated that one can go as deep into the processor as one wishes. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2008 9:02 pm
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| Daniel, I have no experience with a GP100, but if it does what you need for $200, it's hard to argue with that. The Echolution is at least twice that. If you go out for Sushi with another couple, that's more than $200. I fill up my tank and it costs $187. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2008 9:55 pm
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It all depends on what you are looking for.
If you are looking for overdrive components, I wouldn't look to a rack unit or pedal. Chas has the right idea, use an amp. The THD is perfect for rack setups, because it can be used in line in a rack setup with no speakers.; |
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Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2008 4:05 am
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| Thanks, Dan. I was not actually considering a processor for overdrive; any reviews I've seen indicate that's not the point of one, and that the quality of distortion is not really there. I guess I do not really have the pressing need - nor the kind of money - to invest in a lot of higher end equipment. (Theo Hartman, who builds pedals, was very helpful with explaining overdrive/fuzz/distortion and even suggested trying his compressor pedal for the very slight overdrive I'm looking for. He also said it's very difficult to find a single pedal that runs the gamut from slight to screaming.) Speaking of pedals: Chas, do you find it at all the case that stomp boxes may offer greater flexibility than a processor, as far as not having to program everything ahead (as you mentioned in a previous post) and being able to simply switch one effect off and another on when the notion strikes you? |
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Loren Claypool
From:
Mequon, WI
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Posted 6 Aug 2008 6:03 am
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I'm a big proponent of the Line 6 POD series, currently using a POD X3 with plans to upgrade to the POD X3 Pro when it's released. The Pro is the X3 engine in a rack mount config with more I/O options.
You can use the X3 for its amazing amp modeling with the effects capabilities or bypass the amp modeling and just use the effects. The effects quality and quantity are quite impressive. I use the FBV Express pedal unit, which allows me to select between four patches, has tap tempo input, and has a wah/volume pedal. In addition, you can put the unit in edit mode and dial patches up on the fly - something I often do during improvs with or without looping.
I used the X3 for almost all of the 148 tracks on my upcoming release "One Feather Shy", an instrumental guitar album with 18 songs. I played acoustic, electric, baritone electric, fretless electric, lap steel, baritone lap steel, touch, and synthesizer guitars on the album. It works well for me and what I do.
_________________
Loren Claypool
genre-indifferent instrumental guitar music
www.lorenclaypool.com
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Shaan Shirazi
From:
Austin, TX, USA
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Posted 6 Aug 2008 6:30 am
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The Roland GP-100 has got to be the best processor dollar for dollar. For the price of about 3 stomp boxes you get a nearly unlimited ability to create tones.
Being the first modeling processor the engineers did as good a job with digitally approximating famous tube amps and player set ups. It was about $1200 in the mid 90's.
I used it for steel, tele, rockabilly, surf, jazz and now I use it for hard rock and heavy metal.
Modern processors have digital outputs for recording direct but the digital/analog converters in the GP- 100 do a great job.
I love my Roland GP-100 and I'll always be thankful to Tommy Detamore who turned me on to it and Bruce Bouton who turned him on to it. |
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