| Author |
Topic: Fender 1000 Color's ? |
Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 6:36 am |
|
What were the original colors from Fender?
My 1000 is white, not sure if that is orignal.
Thanks
Alvin |
|
|
 |
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 7:37 am
|
|
This owner's manual shows the color of the original Fender 1000's. I seem to recall Fender calling it Ash. But I am not sure.
A Fender 400 of the same era. "circa" 1957
Later, in the 60's, they came out with a sunburst model as shown above. This one just sold on ebaY, and it is in remarkable condition for its age.
I wrote to the seller, and he sent me this digital photo and gave me his permission to use it in my book.
May Jesus bless this person for their kindness and consideration.
carl
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.
Last edited by C Dixon on 30 Jul 2008 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 7:53 am
|
|
*drools 
me want! |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 8:23 am
|
|
It was indeed a beauty Ben.
It sold on July 27, @18:00 hours PDT.
The winning bidder paid $711.01
It was placed up for auction on July 24.
Starting price was $549.99
It is rare to see one in such good condition. It truly looks brand new to my eyes.
I started to bid on it because the seller only lives about a 100 miles from me, but then decided nah!
Kinda wish I had for investment sake. These things are coming back in vogue for some reason. And their prices are steadily going up for some reason too.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 8:51 am
|
|
I was watching that one Carl..but decided against it in favor of a long scale model.
I'm looking for one now but have time and patience.
gonna get one tho for sure! |
|
|
|
Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 11:04 am
|
|
A long time ago my Daddy told me:
"Don't dream of toys that Santa Claus brings other boys"
But I can drool
As far as color goes I gess what I call white is really Ash. |
|
|
|
james sluder
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 30 Jul 2008 8:31 pm
|
|
 I have one just like it ! mine has black cast iron pedals ! It plays really good with a good tone! |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 5:44 am
|
|
It would have been a bit tough for the "white" one pictured to be a '57 when they didn't start making them until '58.
The Fender color is called "blonde" (or blond"). The long-scale ('58-'64'ish) models were mostly blond, with quite a few sunburst 1000's in the later years. Other colors have surfaced that appear to match Fender's Duco "custom colors" used at the time but I have not seen any provenance.
The short-scale ('64'iish - 197?...in the catalog until the 80's but likely no actual production)models seem to be all sunburst except for a few NAMMM show examples. Again, some custom-colors have shown up but no original sales records.
Fender did not track dates, serial numbers, or much of anything on steels. The vague "'64-ish" description is based on transition models (there's one on eBay right now - short scale but with long-scale type stamped pedals) and memories of Fender employees. It's generally accepted that long-scale models were made from '58-late '63 or early '64; short scales from '64 until the end of the line, which is unknown.
Pot dates can't be used as they bought pots in bulk, stuck them in bins and they lasted for years; serial numbers follow no sequence and some repeats have been seen; up until recently, it was thought that a penciled-in date under the tuner plate was the only way to date one, but as most don't even have that it becomes a bit suspicious. It's made it almost impossible for them to become a hot "collector" item, as the detail-oriented "screw counters" (guitar collectors who ferret out every detail to the Nth degree) are totally lost when it comes to these guitars.
So really, there are three groups:
Long scale - 1958-'63/64
Transition (long scale pedals, short-scale body) - 1963/64
Short Scale - 1964-197?
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
Last edited by Jim Sliff on 31 Jul 2008 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 6:43 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| It would have been a bit tough for the "white" one pictured to be a '57 when they didn't start making them until '58. |
Thanks for the correction Jim.
The word "circa" means about or appoximately. At age 76 and no records of when I actually bought the guitar, I knew it was late '50's, just did not know the exact yr.
Thanks again for pointing that out,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 8:35 am
|
|
Thsnks Jim for your input, very helpful info.
Have another question: Where the strings attach to the changer, I have C type hooks that the strings are attached to. Is this somebody's fix? It sure makes it easy to attach the strings.
Thanks
Alvin |
|
|
|
Les Green
From:
Jefferson City, MO, R.I.P.
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 8:53 am
|
|
I bought a new Fender 1000, sunburst in 1962. At the time Bud Carter was doing a local TV show with a white Fender 1000 and helped set mine up.
_________________
Les Green
73 MSA D10 8&4, 74 MSA S10 3&5, Legrande II 8&9, Fender Squier 6 string, Genesis III, Peavey 1000 |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 10:22 am
|
|
The hooks was a Fender "upgrade" shortly after the original blonde models came out. They were designed, as I was told by a Fender rep, "To cut down on premature string breakage".
As you probably know, the original changer had a small hole in the tip of it. Note: Fender changers on these models were not like they are today on most PSG's. Rather than being half round with a pin (or other containment device), where the strings attached, Fender's changers had a small hole dilled through the tip end of the changer finger.
The hole was not large enough to let the ball pass thru. So the string and winding would go through the hole and the ball would be held at a sharp right angle. This supposedly was why they came up with the hooks, according to the Fender rep.
However, none of my strings ever broke there. They always broke directly over the top of the bridge. And often, sadly. Then, Fender made a bridge upgrade, to reduce string breakage.
Speedy West (a Fender player rep at the time) went around the country and handed out bunches of roller bridges (including nut rollers in some cases) that woud replace the original fixed bridge. I found it did nothing to prevent premature string breakage either.
The only sulution many found was to tune everything down to D instead of E. As a result a few of these players, to this day, tune to D9th instead of E9th even though they no longer play one of thes early models.
When they went to the Sunburst finish, Fender also, redesigned the entire changer and it worked more like a Sho-Bud changer. This stopped the premature breakage for the most part. Reducing the scale length also helped a bit too.
Incidently, Ron Lashley SR (former owner and president of Emmons), tried just about every scale length practical, before he found that the best compromise for sound versus breakage, was 24 and 1/4".
He also found the best sound was when the changer was made of soft aluminum (instead of the more desirable hard aluminum, brass, bronze or steel); and the diameter was 3/4"; with the axle being 1/2"; leaving 1/8" wall thickness between the axle and the outside of the changer. However, due to cabinet drop, he had to increase the axle size to 9/16".
Proving once again that in life, there are usually (if not always) tradeoffs. Only in heaven will this not be the case. Praise Jesus.
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 3:00 pm
|
|
Thanks Carl for the great info and your closing line is very true. There have been so many changes on this guitar that I am going to refinish it since I notice some white paint chipping away and I see some red paint.
In order to paint the body I will have to remove the changer and in order to do that I would have to remove the hooks and they don't bend easy. I was successful in making one from a coat hanger, but that was not easy.
Are there any suggestions on making these hooks?
Thanks for all the help
Alvin |
|
|
|
jay thompson
From:
east peoria, il USA
|
Posted 31 Jul 2008 3:30 pm 1000 Colors
|
|
Friends,
I ordered an new 1000 in 1959 and was surprised when it came as a sunburst with the chrome, wide pedals and hog rings on the changer. The hog rings were not much of an improvement as it did not have a roller bridge. I took it anyway, although I wanted a blond with polished frame.
Regards, Jay Thompson |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 5:03 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| The hole was not large enough to let the ball pass thru. So the string and winding would go through the hole and the ball would be held at a sharp right angle. This supposedly was why they came up with the hooks, according to the Fender rep. |
That's interesting...and while it certainly may be true, the story I got from early Fender guys is that the "hog rings" were always part of the design - Leo had one other thought, which was a bend in the changer finger so there would be a straight pull on the string. It was determined to be a more expensive solution and shelved. But the story was that they were never designed for the string to go through the changer hole and bend 90 degrees. That type of "design flaw" would be very "un-Fender" like. That seems to be backed up by the fact that only about 1 in 20 that you see for sale *lacks* hog rings, and in some cases they are mentioned as being lost.
The one thing a lot of players are unclear on is the roller bridge - it was NEVER offered on new guitars. It was strictly a Fender aftermarket part, mainly for the guys using E-type tunings. There were no breakage issues with Fender's suggested A6 and the bar bridge (unless a significant burr was present).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
jay thompson
From:
east peoria, il USA
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 6:02 am Fender 1000 color
|
|
The first 1000 that I remember seeing, was in 1958. It did not have the hog rings. The string was indeed threaded through the hole in the changer. This guitar was white or cream color with a black frame and belonged to "Scotty". "E" and "C" tunings at that time did not have the .010 and .011 strings. "Scotty" lowered the "E" tuning to "D" and added higher notes on top to accomplish Pete Drake licks which were very popular at that time.
Regards, Jay Thompson
Last edited by jay thompson on 1 Aug 2008 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 6:06 am
|
|
You make good points Jim.
My guitar was one of the very first 400's. In fact I had to wait forever to get it once it was annouced. And it did not come with the "hog" rings.
Also, you are very correct about the A6th tuning. That was the tuning on my guitar when it arrived. And indeed I experienced NO breakage on strings, since I began my PSG career pulling "down" off of A, instead of what Bud Isaacs did. In fact, I never knew until later that the he went from E to A. Since I went from A to E.
What a shock when I realized I was backwards from the rest of the world. 
It was after that, that I changed and also Ralph Mooney had come out with the Hi G# to A change, and the string breakage surfaced. It also occured on the B to C# strings often but there was NO way I was ever going to get more than a half dozen pulls on that hi G# string. I tried everything I knew, but to no avail. The hog rings that Fender sent me, and the roller bridge that Speedy gave out, did not do one bit of good as to solving the breakage problem.
Thus why I sold it, after keeping it for over 10 yrs. I just could not get used to D9th.
Thanks for your input Jim. 
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 6:32 am
|
|
I bought and sold a 60s 1000 that was original Teal Green. Very pretty color. Have seen Candy Apple Red and Natural which I really liked. I would think that these would have been availiable in whatever the Fender custom colors were the particular year they were manuf.
When you see a 1000 and you not sure about the original color, sometimes the logo on the pedal board will help. If it is there, then the color is probably original. If it is missing, then maybe not. Sometimes the person doing the refin would not have the decal to put back on.
Then again, knowing Fender, some came without the decal if no decals were in stock the day it was made! |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 9:49 am
|
|
Colors were available in the late '60s. A few have been seen, notably - red, green, blue, and black.
| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The hole was not large enough to let the ball pass thru. So the string and winding would go through the hole and the ball would be held at a sharp right angle. This supposedly was why they came up with the hooks, according to the Fender rep. |
That's interesting...and while it certainly may be true, the story I got from early Fender guys is that the "hog rings" were always part of the design - Leo had one other thought, which was a bend in the changer finger so there would be a straight pull on the string. It was determined to be a more expensive solution and shelved. But the story was that they were never designed for the string to go through the changer hole and bend 90 degrees. That type of "design flaw" would be very "un-Fender" like. That seems to be backed up by the fact that only about 1 in 20 that you see for sale *lacks* hog rings, and in some cases they are mentioned as being lost. |
Sorry, that's just not the case. The first guitars did not come with the "hog rings". These were added sometime later, as Carl says, to alleviate the problem of breaking strings if they were installed incorrectly. Here's the quote, right from their 2nd (revised) owners manual for the long scale 1000 (the first manual was monochrome printed, the second was three-color printed)...
| Quote: |
| Stings should be changed at regular intervals for fine tone and playing action. Thread each string through the string lever so the string ball is on the player's side. WHILE THE STRING IS BEING TIGHTENED, THE HOLE IN THE STRING BALL SHOULD BE HELD PARALLEL TO THE STRING TO PREVENT PREMATURE STRING BREAKAGE. |
That's the quote - right from the manual, and the bold type is Fender's, not mine. For any that still doubt me, here's the photo from the same manual showing the strings going right through the levers.
Interestingly enough, there were two different designs of hog rings used, and my guitar did have some of the newer ones. The rings were easily lost if the string broke, and you put the guitar back into the case before removing the ring (or replacing the string).
As far as the sunburst finishes, perhaps they did make one before 1962, but that's when they were first offered and pictured in the catalogs, as I have all the catalogs and brochures from that era. In addition, here's another quote right from the 1962 catalog...
| Quote: |
| Both models (400 and 1000), equipped with the new Fender Roller Bridges and nuts, ruggedly built to take the hardest use, are convenient to carry and can be set up or disassembled in 3 minutes. |
The roller bridges were only factory-installed for about a year, In late '63, the new design changer (with "individually moveable bridges") was integrated into all models. (This is also in one of the catalogs I have.)
I know some of you consider me a sophomoric old geezer, and that's why I'll provide "the "visual aides" if you like. I'll be more than happy to send you a xerox of the catalog pages (with actual text, as my scanner is not working any more). |
|
|
|
Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 10:00 am
|
|
Thanks to everyone for the excellent info,
Keep it comming, I am getting an education on these
guitars.
Still love the tone
Alvin |
|
|
|
Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted 1 Aug 2008 10:17 am
|
|
Another question: Are the tuners used on the 1000
the same as on the Stringmaster?
Also, what other other models use this same tyoe tuner.
Thanks
Alvin |
|
|
|
Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
|
Posted 2 Aug 2008 9:09 am
|
|
Weren't the individual movable bridges that Donny mentioned from '63 also used on the Fender steels that ShoBud made for them? I thought I remembered seeing them on those guitars.......JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
|
|
|
C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
|
Posted 2 Aug 2008 9:48 am
|
|
You are correct Jerry. In fact once Fender upgraded their changer to the "moving bridge" type, they used it on ALL models, inclulding the "400's" and "1000's". Ya 'caint' knock success. (If one is wise)
Shot Jackson was a very practical "ole sea captain" type of person. He tackled a problem head on, and always came up with something that did in fact improve on whatever problem there was. Albeit; not always in the most esthetically appealing manner. But then that was Shot.
A bit of trivia: When Ralph Mooney came up with the high G# to A change and Shot started adding this string and change to his PSG's, he never said G# for that string, EVEN though his own writeups said G# for string 6.
Someone asked him why he called the 3rd string Ab?
He exclaimed in no uncertain terms, "Because that is what it is!"
May Jesus rest his precious soul,
c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart. |
|
|
|
Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
|
Posted 3 Aug 2008 2:28 pm
|
|
Donny, thanks - I stand corrected. The info I had was from the memories of folks involved at the time and like anything else may not be totally accurate.
It sounds like the "ringless" changer was very short-lived, if in fact hog rings showed up in '59.
Interesting also about the roller-bridge being "standard" for a short time. Any idea what time period we're talking about? I suppose a logical guess would be 63-ish only, but it's difficult to confirm any of this with Fender; their production records are less than stellar.
Another example would be the serial number "system", which appears to have not been a system at all. I've had emails from guys with the SAME serial number! It seems as if they simply made a "batch" of guitars, stamped them all with different numbers (keeping no record) and shipped them - making the next batch susceptible to repeats.
And dating the guitars is the last and most difficult issue. Pot dates are useless, as huge quantities of pots were bought, tossed into bins, and pulled out over a period of years...sometimes older ones would be stuck in the back for quite some time.
It's been reported that dates are penciled in under the tuner pan, but out of 25 or so that I've checked not a single one had a date, making me a bit suspicious that someone came up with that as a way to place a specific date on a guitar to sell.
Good thread - I keep trying to build a timeline, and while each time information come sup it clouds the existing data I have no doubt it's correct in Donny's case - eventually we'll have some solid dating information.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 21 Nov 2008 4:31 am
|
|
All VERY interesting data, one more item would be useful: With all the references to short scale Mk.2's and longer scale Mk.1's .. What are the scale lengths ?
I can tell you that my Mk.2 1000 and 400 are 23" and my PS-210 is 23.5"
So what scale length is a Mk.1 and also the 800 and 2000? |
|
|
|
