Unbiased Steel Guitar

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

I have only played two steel guitars, a Sho-Bud, and an MSA.

Has anyone ever done a head to head comparison of the major brands available today? Not to say that one is better than another, just point out the differences, and any advantages of a certain brand.

The only opinions I've read so far came from people who typically report on the ones they have, and that one is usually best in their view.

Maybe this would be better done in a more objective fashion by someone like Bobbe Seymore? Bill Duncan
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Barry Westerfield · From: Myrtle Beach, SC

I have also played ShoBud and MSA.....LOVE my GFI Ultra though

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Finding objective players to do a comparison is very, very difficult. Most players are seriously predjudiced in favor of one or two brands, and seem very pleased if you play what they play...or make, or sell.

As for me, rarely do I even mention what I own or play, because to me...it's immaterial. I refuse to endorse anything because for me, the "magic" is in the player, not the guitar. Others may disagree, and some even despise me for thinking that way, but I simply don't care. I get no warm fuzzies if you use what I use, and I could really care less what anyone else uses. There is no "best", except in our own minds. Each has advantages and disadvantages, ups and downs, good points and bad.

Tommy plays one brand, Paul plays another, Lloyd plays yet another, Sonny plays something else, and Buddy plays...well, you get the idea. Wink

Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

I Have A GFI Ultra, A Magnum, A New Rittenberry, I Like Them All, SONNY.

Steve Morley · From: Connecticut, USA

Coming from the world of "one-off" instruments, Uilleann pipes, I agree with Donny, in that most people will stick with whatever they start with, and make their music with it. (I hope my paraphrasing is accurate, Donny)

It would be nice, however, to see a common listing of features available, such as triple-raise/lower, half-stops on every changer finger, cab drop compensator, and if not, why not, etc.

I don't anticipate needing some of the bells and whistles that many players favor, but it would be nice to see what is available.

David Doggett · Posted 23 Jul 2008 3:11 pm

Here's a link to the manufacturers: steel guitar manufacturers. And to this list of over 30 pedal steel manufacturers you could add another dozen or so discontinued brands that are still around in good condition on the used market.

I doubt if there is anyone alive who has played them all. Some of the guys who run shops have probably come close to playing them all. But they are only human, and they tend to give glowing accounts of the ones they get in stock to sell.

A major problem in ranking things like this is that there is a lot of personal disagreement about what are the most important aspects of the instrument - tone (and what kind of tone) or timbre, precision mechanics, ease of making copedent changes, durability, ease of playing, intonation stability, looks, name recognition and prestige, resale value. And then there is the question of price. Is the sky the limit, or is most bang for the buck important? Each person has to decide which of those things are most important. Then you have to play a bunch of them, and look under the hood.

If you look around at the brands the top pros are playing, you probably can't go wrong, but you might miss some lesser known jewels and bargains. Or you could just buy the most expensive one you can afford. You'll be assured of getting something really good, but there's no guarantee there are not some others just as good at lower prices.

Looking down that list of brands, probably every one of them will play better than I can.

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

As expensive as a steel guitar is to purchase, a Consumer's Report type of objective comparision would provide some helpful information.

I have scoured the web pages of the major builders and they give precious little real information other than color choices.

Very few music stores carry pedal steels, new or used. So we usually purchase untried instruments, and then seem to develope a penchant for what we have purchased and tout it as the best for no particular reason!

I am not suggesting that anyone should try to decide which is best, there probably is no one best guitar. I would simply like to see an unbiased comparision from someone who has had experience with and a good knowledge of what is offered. Bill Duncan
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You can observe a lot just by looking

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I thought i read on here once about such a gathering and testing of various pedal steels .....I beleive the reason for doing it was an argument over "tone" and wether it was in the hands of the player or the instrument. I wanna say this "testing" took place at Jim Palenscars shop....but maybe I just imagined all that or maybe it was a hypothetical or a proposal that such a thing be done...I cannot recall...anyone?

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Its totally subjective. What one person hears is not what another person likes. Its personal preference. People do not hear the same way. I say whatever makes you happy. One person's advantage is another's disadvantage. Unbiased opinion? Good luck.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There are so many levels to discuss this question on. But playability and tonality are the biggies to me.

The tonality question goes to Reece Anderson's "double-blind test" concept that has gotten quite a bit of attention in the last year. I honestly don't think there is much probative value in listening tests conducted in front of people who know what they're listening to. One often perceives what one expects to perceive, and there are many other types of measurement bias.

The playability question is similarly loaded. Different players often want very different things. For example, some want feather-light pedal and lever action while others want firmer action with a fast return. Preferences on string spacing and scale length vary. You name it. Some of these differences are fairly subtle, and past listing the objective differences, I don't see where this goes.

I have owned a bunch of pedal steels in the last several years, and tried even many more. The "big guys" have been doing this for decades, and I haven't heard any consensus about any of this. I honestly think I think it's much more useful to spend time playing with one's own hands and listening with one's own ears than continue to yack about the "advantages" and "disadvantages" of different brands. Quite seriously, I think the differences between most top-quality modern pedal steels are fairly subtle, and only detectable through one's personal lens.

On brands - although there are certainly mechanical differences between brands, as far as tone and overall playability are concerned, I personally have noticed about as much difference from guitar to guitar within a brand as between brands - as long as we're talking about modern high-quality PSGs.

What might be useful would be a comparison list of the most critical objective features of a wide variety of pedal steel guitars. Included would be string spacing, scale length, type of changer and special features, number of raises/lowers, guitar dimensions, key/keyless design and tuner type if applicable, body materials and quality, weight in and out of case, presence of special features like the Emmons Legrande split adjustment screws or counterforce mechanism, typical street price new and used, and no doubt many other things including materials used, pedal shape or design, lever design, or any other odd things (like cosmetics) that might be of interest. It would honestly be interesting, for me, to just see all that in a table for a bunch of top brands.

But I don't really see how it's possible to categorize the really important things - the intangibles - by brand in a table. Consumer Reports is good for vacuum cleaners, but I've never seen them try to rate or classify musical instruments.

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Unbiased? In this colony of artists and romantics?

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

[quote="Dave Mudgett"]What might be useful would be a comparison list of the most critical objective features of a wide variety of pedal steel guitars. Included would be string spacing, scale length, type of changer and special features, number of raises/lowers, guitar dimensions, key/keyless design and tuner type if applicable, body materials and quality, weight in and out of case, presence of special features like the Emmons Legrande split adjustment screws or counterforce mechanism, typical street price new and used, and no doubt many other things including materials used, pedal shape or design, lever design, or any other odd things (like cosmetics) that might be of interest. It would honestly be interesting, for me, to just see all that in a table for a bunch of top brands.

Exactly! The things you listed would be great to see in an attribute list of steel guitars. Tone and playability are way too subjective to get into. However, pedal length, mechanisms, price, weight,
materials, quality of build, delivery time, etc., would be fair game to list and compare. Bill Duncan
_________________
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Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Sorry, but I don't believe you will ever see this happen. I don't think there is anyone in the steel guitar world that is totally unbiased. This would take someone who has never been associated with the steel guitar. Then, with their lack of knowledge of the instrument, how would they play them to check them out.

Nothing bad against Bobbe Seymour, as I think he would probably be most qualified, but even he has his favorite guitar (and brand), so he couldn't be TOTALLY unbiased.

Everyone else on this thread has pointed out why this would be an impossible task.

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Guitars are like fingerprints and zebras.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

no matter if you're playing the bestest most perfect awesome tone to the bone to die for steel, you're gonna hear someone else playing some clunker sounding better than you!

Henry Nagle · From: Santa Rosa, California

Amen!

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Tone is subjective, but there ARE some objective things one can look at.

The changer is one. If you are playing a single or double ten a double raise double lower changer is adequate. If you play a universal, you need a triple raise. I lower one string 3 times and need a triple lower changer.

Tunable splits- Some people don't care about this. For others, it's an essential.

Weight. Some people don't care about this too, but others care very much about it. One of our fellow forumites, I won't mention who, broke a vertebra in his neck a few years ago, and although it healed, the man found it painful to lug his D-10 maple/lacquer guitar around, and sold it and bought a Millennium for no other reason than the fact that it's 20 or so pounds lighter than his previous one. The Milly's light weight was a major factor in my decision to get one too.

Some people (including me) want guitars like MSA and Sierra with interchangeable pickups. It's not so much that we swap pickups all the time, (although some do) so much as you can easily try out a lot of different ones and see which one you prefer. (Note: My white mica MSA has been retrofitted with the Sierra system)

I'd like to see every brand of guitar incorporate this feature, and I wish that the MSA system and the Sierra system were compatible with each other.

Another question, although not so much about the guitars, is whether the company will make things like wrist levers, or other one-of-a-kind custom things. Some will, some won't.

Everybody makes good steels today, but not everybody makes lightweight ones, or will make a wrist lever, or has a triple lower changer.
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David Doggett · Posted 24 Jul 2008 9:08 am

Yes, a big chart of the features of pedal steels on the used and currently manufactured markets would be very useful for buyers. I basically bought a used MSA Millenium for the interchangeable pickup. I prefer a single coil, but wanted to be able to swap in a humbucker for that occasional gig with the neon sign next to the stage, and for solo recording. The lightweight, precision mechanics, and state of the art execution of a universal made the choice way easier. Also, gauged nut rollers to flatten the strings at the nut are essential for a universal, but may not be so important for a 10-string. Some of the very top brands do not offer gauged nut rollers, and for that matter they may not even make a universal.

So sometimes seemingly small items eliminate some top brands, and steer you toward others. To me, tone, or more correctly timbre, is one of the least important deciding factors in a purchase. This is not because I don't value tone, but because modern manufacturers have gotten so good at providing good tone, and because they all sound so similar. This is basically a solid-body instrument made from a plank of tone material, with a tuning device bolted onto one end and a changer bolted on the other, and some endplates and legs bolted on. Unless you use really inferior soft-wood or plywood, they are all going to come out sounding pretty good, and pretty similar. Even radically different materials such as the laminated maple die-board in GFIs and the carbon fiber bodies of MSA Millenniums end up sounding about the same as the traditional solid rock maple.

The so-called tone differences we quibble about are undetectable even by experienced players in a blind listening test. The tone and sustain differences are so subtle they can be erased with a nudge of a tone knob and small unconscious adjustments of how we work the volume pedal. Other than the push/pull, which has a different design, the heated discussions we get into over the supposed signature "tone" of our favorite brand of plank solid-body instrument are silly compared to the real decisions people have to make among the vastly differing tones of acoustic instruments and the radically different designs of 6-string electric guitars.

And nobody wants to admit it, but most of us are really involved in the looks of our instrument. We have to fall in love with the way they look. There's no question that many people fall in love with those beautiful old curly maple lacquer Sho-Bud's, even though some of them were never very good mechanically and are now clap-trap dinosaurs. And some people won't consider a keyless GFI, because they don't look traditional, even though they are superbly designed, state-of-the art, precision instruments, with great tone and sustain.

Well anyway, who is going to do the research to make up this big chart of features? A lot of manufacturers don't really have the incentive to make such a detailed comparison so easy. Why would they want the features they overlooked or consciously decided not to provide highlighted?

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

David,

You hit on exactly what I've been talking about. Not tone, not playablity. FEATURES! Little items that can mean something to someone planning to buy a new steel. Bill Duncan
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You can observe a lot just by looking

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

A couple of quibbles:

Ronnie Boettcher · From: Brunswick Ohio, USA

Maybe I am off the wall here, but y'all hear and play differently. And a big thing is the "AMP". Every amp, and the way the dials are set, you can get a 10,000 different sounds. With each brand of steel, and amp paired up, the tone is out of sight, on the sounds.
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Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142

Mike Mantey · From: Eastern Colorado, USA

I will tell you a few features on the G2 and Mullen:

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