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Topic: New blueser eating Eric and B. B.'s lunch |
Darryl Hattenhauer
From:
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
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Pete Finney
From:
Nashville Tn.
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Posted 10 Jul 2008 8:30 pm |
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| Quote: |
| "eating Eric and B.B.'s lunch" |
Not saying the kid can't play... but he's not even close.
He might be someday, but for now that's a serious overstatement.
Just MHO of course... |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 10 Jul 2008 10:24 pm
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| Pete Finney wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "eating Eric and B.B.'s lunch" |
Not saying the kid can't play... but he's not even close.
He might be someday, but for now that's a serious overstatement.
Just MHO of course... |
Agreed 100%. |
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Darryl Hattenhauer
From:
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2008 10:25 pm
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| Quote: |
| Just MHO of course... |
Mine too.
_________________
Steel crazy after all these years.
$100 reward for info leading to the purchase of a fender D8 white, yellow, or butterscotch. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 1:19 am
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he's certainly a good player of the BLUES..
I wonder where he learned to use a LES PAUL and an overdriven amp ?
Is he good enough to last 50 years ? I pretty much won't know that answer but I can tell you he won't last 5 year playing these same EC and BB tunes. In 4 years there will be another just like him, probably better, playing the same EC and BB tunes !
Don't get me wrong, I would go see him play if he was local, but not for a $60 ticket.I would pay $5 at the door.
Eating EC's and BB's lunch ? He may eat there sandwich but he didn't make the sandwich !
tp
ps, here's 3 guys I would pay several hundred to see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud1Y7rXFEQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkm9OiYvmPc&feature=related
by the way, I did see them twice and I think paid $8 or something like that..  |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 6:03 am
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He is good player and it is cool to see such a young guy playing like this...but he ain't no BB King and never will be.
TP is right about the chainsaw guitar. Take that away from all these blues copying guys and they would be like a fish out of water. |
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Shaan Shirazi
From:
Austin, TX, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 6:07 am
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| There no funnier description of a musician to me than "Blues Prodigy" |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 6:55 am
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Hey Shaan, it's good to see you postin'! What've you been up to, amigo? E-mail me if you like.
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| There no funnier description of a musician to me than "Blues Prodigy" |
I'm not sure I understand what would be humorous about that label. Explain, please.
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| He is good player and it is cool to see such a young guy playing like this...but he ain't no BB King and never will be. |
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| TP is right about the chainsaw guitar. Take that away from all these blues copying guys and they would be like a fish out of water. |
He's young, and copying is a way for young, aspiring musicians to learn and understand the musical genre they wish to play. As he gets older he may just prove you right by developing his own style of playing. He may set a standard for all that come after him... it could happen.
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 9:26 am
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I'm sorry to sound a sour note here, but I really am weary of hearing very young blues-rock copicat shredders. Every town has one. Over the last 10-15 years, I've heard lots of teenagers who can "shred the blues" in similar fashion. I like the fact that they are in earnest and I don't fault them - they are very young and doing what comes natural. But I think a lot of people pay way too much attention to this, at the expense of fine journeymen who have paid their dues and really play the blues. I think if this wasn't adulated so much by the rock-shredder mentality public, these players would settle down and go for more depth. It's obvious they love the blues, and I'll bet some of these guys do just that in time.
I agree with Shaan - the term "blues virtuoso" or "blues prodigy" seems like an oxymoron to me because it's really not a technical style. As far as technique goes, the truly virtuosic young guitar players I hear are doing straightahead jazz, some type of speed-rock-metal, or some other style that really relies on technique, and I sometimes see truly jaw-dropping technique in younger players.
But I think the essence of blues is somewhere else. I really think they need to slow down, really listen to the masters of several generations, and learn - one note at a time - to get to the essence of the blues. Once that's done and good tonality and phrasing are there, it's reasonable to rev it up and do all this other stuff. I like Albert Collins' take on blues players. He always said that a great blues player has to have something personal and identifiable. I totally agree. I'm not saying that copying and developing technique are bad as a learning tool. But I think the sooner blues players realize that imprinting themselves on their guitar is more important than shredding, the better.
All my opinions, of course. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 9:38 am
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This is an interesting question of long standing.
| Shaan Shirazi wrote: |
| There no funnier description of a musician to me than "Blues Prodigy" |
I think what Shaan meant is that the blues genre has not generally been about technical difficulty and proficiency, which can be mastered by young prodigies, but about a feeling that comes from years of life experience. The genre originated with the poorest and most oppressed people in the country, and many believe that background is also a requirement for authenticity in the genre. However, many top black blues musicians, such as B.B. King, have clearly shown a more expansive outlook that recognizes that even the privileged have human suffering and misery; and so the blues can be about the human condition in general, and has no ethnic or national boundaries.
This same question of authenticity and maturity also arises in jazz and classical music when young prodigies emerge. Apparently certain naturally talented children who start early with a single-minded purpose and dedication can master at an early age what others who take a more balanced approach only achieve much later in life. This creates a certain amount of jealousy and resentment that colors the "authenticity" criticisms. Although sometimes there is a rather obvious lack of emotional intensity and subtlety in some young prodigies, some of them are able to convincingly imitate such signs of maturity to an amazing extent.
In the blues genre, this phenomenon goes back to Johnny Winters, and even Eric Clapton and the other young white blues-rockers of the '60s. And it has been a nagging question for emerging blues stars, especially white ones ever since, for example, Bonnie Raite, Luther Dickinson (North Mississippi Allstars), and a new British kid Davy Knowles (Back Door Slam), who blew me away a few months ago when I heard him live.
As a white blues musician myself, I would like to think things like skin color and age don't factor in to musical appreciation. But in reality it is the whole context of the performance that figures into our appreciation and willingness to give ourselves over to the experience. I guess how much it counts depends on the situation and the listener. Like the blues, it's personal.  |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 10:18 am
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| Hank Williams to me is as great a blues singer as Howlin' Wolf. I think that is one of the reasons his music is timeless. It is an instant feeling that his vocal makes contact with you without even taking under consideration the backing track. If you could take his vocal out of "I'm So Lonsome I could Cry" and superimpose it onto a rhythm track done by Howin' Wolf....it would fit right in. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 10:49 am
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I don't think - at this point - race, color, gender, or any other correlatives have all that much to do with being able to play or sing blues. It's simply being able to grok what it's really about. I suppose that's different to different people, but to me, it's about expressing raw emotions in a particular format. There are also very subtle phrasing, tonality, and intonation issues. I think "mileage" and experience are important, although I acknowledge that some are blessed early.
I agree with Bill that Hank was a great blues singer. In my view, blues came up as an outlet to express emotions, and pain and suffering were central themes of its progenitors. Seems to me that Hank could mainline that into his music, and with his influences, the blues just naturally came out in a lot of it. Of course, blues is not just expression of pain and suffering - but I think they are integral. Playing blues has certainly gotten me through some times of real pain and suffering in ways that I don't think anything else on this earth could have. I've never viewed playing blues as something I chose to do, but did because I needed to, somehow. I guess I expect that in blues musicians. YMMV - maybe it's just pure shredding "party time" music for some, but not for me. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 1:55 pm
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Here in L.A., where Most people here believe that music was invented by Jimi Hendrix, that style defines guitar playing. You can play classial guitar as well as Segovia, or jazz as well as Wes Montgomery, but if you don't play de blooze with a fuzz tone and a wha wha pedal, you don't play the guitar.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 2:26 pm
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Well......... these kids are 13-14 years old, how much life experience and emotional debth do you guys expect them to have?
The thing is that when the time comes and life hits them in the groin, they will have a remarkable technical foundation (for a blues/rock player) to start 'expressing themselves'.
When I was 13 all I knew was the intro to Smoke On The Water - and not even properly....
Steinar
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 2:50 pm
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| Quote: |
| Well......... these kids are 13-14 years old, how much life experience and emotional debth do you guys expect them to have? |
Although I do know some young people with lots of emotional depth, I already echoed your premise in my first post. My issue isn't with the players at all, who are doing what comes natural, but with the amount of attention that is paid to the "blues prodigy" thing.
I don't think these types of players are going to be the savior of blues or roots music in general. Most of the young "blues shredders" I've seen eventually moved on to shredding pastures with more technical challenges. The younger players I've seen really get deep into blues came a different path. I don't think you need to be a prodigy or a virtuoso to play the blues well. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 5:40 pm
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| Hank Williams to me is as great a blues singer as Howlin' Wolf. |
To me, that is a whole different issue than the attempts at exact immitation of these young "blues prodigies." Jimmy Rogers, Hank, and Elvis took blues, and gave it an original white interpretation or translation - they made it their own and thereby created whole new genres. Nobody really familiar with Muddy, Wolf and BB would ever mistake the former three for the latter (I know you are familiar with them Bill H., and I realize that is not what you are saying). But instead of creating something different, blending in their own cultural musical accents, these young "blues prodigies" are exact imitators.
Of course imitation is a huge part of the blues tradition. But somehow Elmore James imitating the Robert Johnson of his youth is not quite the same thing as a teenage white kid today imitating BB King of 50 years ago. Somehow it seems like it is taking a sidetrack from the real tradition, and becoming scary imitative in a freakish way. Of course, no one feels anything but respect when a modern opera singer nails a Puccini aria reminiscent of the great stars of the past. But maybe that would seem freakish too if the singer was 16. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 6:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| But instead of creating something different, blending in their own cultural musical accents, these young "blues prodigies" are exact imitators. |
Slight quibble, Dave. If they truly got the feel and nuance of the great masters, I'd be way more interested. But I don't think most of them are even close. To me, with my eyes closed, it sounds like someone trying to imitate someone else. There's something about the phrasing, the way they bend, the tonality, and other things that say that to me.
Truly capturing the essence of another player in a style like blues does not, in my opinion, always even require getting the notes exactly right. There is a certain feel and approach that - if captured - scream "BB", "Albert", "Sam", "Muddy" or one of the other greats. When the great players do it, they don't do it slavishly, but use it like a reference in a larger context.
I couldn't care less how old or young a player is. If I see a young blues player just rip it up, great - I've seen a few. On the other hand, how interested do you think anybody is in an old - but not well-known or "legendary" - blues players these days, no matter how good? This whole thing isn't about music, but about how young the player is - it's a novelty thing. My opinion, of course. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 6:18 pm
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I agree with those who have said (in other words) that a player must Live the blues and must have lived a lotta life before he can bring real honesty to the blues. I have a hard time watching a teenager sing raw, tortured lyrics about how life has been tough for him. And the guitar playing... yes, it's good playing, but it's nothing special IMHO. It's been done a thousand times before. It's an imitation of another man's genius. I'm having deja vu back to 1997 when I first saw and heard Johnny Lang, a 16 year old "blues prodigy" at that time. Teenage "blues prodigies" are basically novelty acts, in my opinion. They get attention because they are so young.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 6:34 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| ... a more expansive outlook that recognizes that even the privileged have human suffering and misery; and so the blues can be about the human condition in general, and has no ethnic or national boundaries. |
Which reminds me of a song I once heard; goes sumthin' like this:
White Man's Blues
Woke up this afternoon,
Both cars were gone
Whoa, I woke up this afternoon, baby
BOTH cars were gone!
I got so gol-darn mad,
I threw my drink across the lawn!
(Now don't you be laughin' at my human condition...) |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 7:31 pm
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I guess "novelty" is a little kinder than my use of "freakish." 
Jimbeaux, here's my blues lyrics:
I got 3 teenagers and a 20-year-old.
Yeah, I got 3 teenagers and a 20-year-old.
Lawd, Detroit ain't made 'nuff cars fer 'em.  |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 7:36 pm
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| It's all Stevie Ray Vaughan's fault. Louder, flashier, faster than anybody else... |
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Glenn Suchan
From:
Austin, Texas
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Posted 11 Jul 2008 7:51 pm
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| Quote: |
White Man's Blues
Woke up this afternoon,
Both cars were gone
Whoa, I woke up this afternoon, baby
BOTH cars were gone!
I got so gol-darn mad,
I threw my drink across the lawn! |
That's what's so great about this forum. Where else are you gonna find a reference to Martin Mull's musical satire on "white folks" playin' the blooz? I think he performed this on a ukelele, using a baby bottle for a slide.
OK, on to another point that has been brought up in other posts on this thread. That being, that young blues imitators can't cut it when compared to the recognized legends that inspired them. My take: I think it all comes down to the hype the imitator receives. If the imitator is hyped up by the music industry, the world fawns over him (or her). Take a look at a couple of legends: Eric Clapton: Clearly, his playing is a nod toward the likes of Buddy Guy, Tampa Red and Hubert Sumlin, among others. Stevie Ray Vaughn: Every lick, every chord, every playing nuance SRV picked was very obviously taken from Jimi Hendrix' rock style, Albert King's blues style, or Barney Kessel's jazz style (when SRV ocassionally played jazz). OK, the flame suit is on so take your best shot. But don't burn me too bad, because I'm only pointing out the things that have been said about young, non-legendary imitators that also apply to legendary imitators.
So, you tell me, what's wrong with imitation? I say nothing if it's done well. If you say the imitators don't have their own style. I say, some (the great ones) eventually will develop a signature style. Some (like SRV) won't, but will still attain greatness.
As for playin' da' blooz, I don't buy the whole bit about you can't play blues if you haven't lived in (as John Lee Hooker sang) "a one room country shack". That's about as cock-eyed a notion as someone saying you can't read and relate to great literary tragedy unless you've lived a tragedy, yourself. If you feel the emotion of the blues, you can learn the playing techniques and play the blues respectfully. If you can't feel the blues (and this has nothing to do with age or life-lessons), no matter how much practicing you do, you won't be able to play the blues convincingly. To me that's the heart of blues music, or jazz, or country, or any kind of music. If you can't feel it in your soul, you can't play it convincingly. That's what makes the legends. Not their originality. Nothing's been original in western music for a long, long time.
Flame away! 
Keep on pickin'!
Glenn |
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