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Topic: POD level issue to mixer |
Richard Marko
From:
Dallas, Texas
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Posted 9 Jul 2008 8:18 am |
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I use a POD XT PRO only - direct to mixer board, a Morley LED volume pedal and in ears. This is a total new world for me and I'm having difficulty.
I've been having alot of trouble with the sound guy saying during sound check he sets my level fine but when we play the show sometimes I
"Red Line" - so he sets me lower - now my level for other songs and rest of the night are too low !!!
I started playing the intro to “Your Man” and had one guy watch the mixer board and another listen on ears and found that when I pick the string “just a little harder – very slight” that I started to red line on mixer. So yes I’m near the max input to mixer and that is where sound guy sets everybody’s level at. To the top of the green LEDS before yellow.
In all of my 35 years of playing I've never had a problem with "Picking Technique" TILL NOW !!!
I'm self taught and not sure if there is a certain touch or technique to learn.
Should he set everybody’s level a little lower to give it some more room ??
Does anyone have any input or ideas on how or what to do ???
I just got a rack mount LED db level meter to hook on output of POD when I get the connectors tomorrow so I can see for myself what I’m doing wrong if anything.
The only thing I can think of is to do is jack some more with the compressor specifically the gate to see if it will prevent this.
I thought of a limiter but that is more like a square wave and will just cut me off when I hit that point where the compressor/gate won’t be that noticeable.
Now I have to pay attention to how hard I pick the strings which will be difficult when we are heavy into a jam or “feeling / into “ a song and being expressive !!
Now I’m self conscious of this and feel I won’t be able to enjoy playing like I use to.
Man I miss my session 500 and using a mic in front of it !!! |
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Brick Spieth
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2008 2:13 pm
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A limiter will only limit the output of the Pod to the level at which it is set. A compressor will mess with your dynamic range all the time. If your dynamics are important to you, don't compress. IMHO. Does the Pod have a limiter?
I've noticed that a steel has a really high output, so watch the input level on the pod. |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2008 5:45 pm
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What kind of moronic sound mixer doesn't ride the sliders for dynamic changes within a performance??? I never heard of such a "problem," I think your biggest problem is the sound man. If he can't compensate for any player's dynamic range, he should definitely be doing something else for a living. If you can't convey that to him without hurting feelings, then just take it with a grain of salt and play the way you always have. Geez, never heard of such a thing, honest, and I've played professionally for over 35 years...  Well, there was this roadie who nailed the drummer's bass drum to the stage through the shell... But...
If your XT Pro is like my XT, you have an output knob. Set it to 12:00 and give yourself some headroom, and if he turns you down too much, turn yourself up some. Leave plenty of room for yourself. Is your monitor mix the same as FOH? If not, you might not be as buried as you fear...
Best regards,
...z
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 9 Jul 2008 7:27 pm
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Assuming your soundman is competent and has a reasonable mixing board, he or she should set the channel trims for each instrument and vocal so that the absolute maximum signal you present gives a good, robust signal with a little headroom before clipping. This means you need to give them the maximum signal you would ever use during sound check.
With the trims properly set, now masters and channel faders should be set so that, again, the maximum signals presented don't redline but give a good robust signal with a little fader headroom before clipping. With this as a baseline, they can ride the faders a bit - down or even a wee bit up - if they need to. But if things are set up right, a band with a good sense of dynamics should now be able to control the overall dynamic range with minimal intervention at the board.
I'm sometimes amazed at the trouble some (not all) sound people have with my Pod. I don't understand what it is - is it possible that some of these guys are used to just micing everything and don't know how to properly set the trims in the face of widely varying signal levels? Sometimes they tell me the Pod's line out is killing them - they're usually running it into a mic input, and I tell them to switch to line level and/or adjust the trims back. Sometimes they tell me they barely register me - I have no idea what that one is - that Pod output is certainly hotter than the typical mic. I present the same exact settings every time - output on 12 o'clock and everything else on the same presets - and some tell me I'm blowing them away, others tell me I'm barely there - sometimes even on the same board in the same club. That tells me it isn't me.
For years, I did my own sound. Now most of the clubs here have their own sound systems and sound people. I sure don't miss hauling the gear around, but I do miss being able to control our own sound.
I don't think you should need to use a compressor or limiter except in a couple of situations:
First, if you want that sound, fine. On pedal steel, I want to control dynamics with my fingers and volume pedal, and any significant compression defeats that. On guitar, I sometimes do use a little bit of compression to get that compressed-Tele sound.
Second, if the sound system is underpowered and the sound engineer is running it on the ragged edge, sometimes light compression or limiting is useful, in the interests of extracting the maximum amount of power without overload. But I'd leave that to the sound engineer. They should never run the trims so high that you're clipping the front end, and that's the only thing you would need to run a limiter to prevent. If they want to compress the overall mix or certain instruments, they can do that themselves after the first preamp stage.
My opinions, as usual. |
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Richard Marko
From:
Dallas, Texas
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Posted 10 Jul 2008 4:37 am
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Thanks guys -You've all given me useful information and some I just learned first hand from playing last night !!!
I almost came to slapping the crap out of the sound guy (leader of the band and front guy - it's his $65,000 system - go figure huh !!) because I saw he had my trim set to 12 o'clock and he wouldn't turn it down !!! Finally half way through the night he did and all got alot better. Not perfectly the way I want it but better. I need to readjust the entire band in my ears mix now.
The ears are not from the front of the house (I wish they were). It is set up so we can adjust the balance of all instruments individually. The problem with this is it usually sounds like crap and it is difficult playing when it isn't sounding good to the player !! He just tells me "you have to have faith it sounds good out front and if what I hear coming from the POD headphones is good that is what is coming out front" !!
Now I really feel like slapping him !!!
I also found out last night that yes the compressor does mess up the tones and more issues evolved so I will stop using it. In particular I had compressor on all patches except distortion, so when I went to use distortion the volume in my ears was twice as loud !!!
This was weird because we set all patches looking at the meter on mixer and alll were the same levels ??? The only thing that was different was no compressor !!! I'll work on that tonite and set all without compressor and start with the basics.
On the volume knob (last one) every body tells me to set it to max when using XLR, at noon or 5 o'clock when using 1/4", however I did set it at 5 o'clock using XLR and worked out well it also gave me some headroom.
The past two weeks I gave the "leader" copies of e-mails I had communicated from David Spires (Jo Dee Messina's steel player)- he did read them and David said all the same stuff you guys did.
For two weeks he fought me on this but hopefully after last night it is a turning point.
A turning point that if it is fixed and we learned something from it all or I'm quitting this band if it continues!!! IF IT ISN'T FUN PLAYING ANYMORE - MAKE A CHANGE AND START ENJOYING AGAIN.
PLAYING STEEL IS A PRIVELAGE AND NEEDS TO BE ENJOYED BY THE PLAYER ALONG WITH THE AUDIENCE.
Another question for all - does your knob to switch the patches feel odd, like it is dragging or a dirty feeling. It doesn't look like it is easy to get inside where it is mounted and frankly I'm afraid to try it. Just wanted to know if anyone else found this on their POD. |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Jeff Valentine
From:
Colorado Springs, USA
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 4:46 am Sounds like a soundguy issue....
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Hey Richard,
You've recently replied to one of my posts regarding in ears, which I appreciate. If you're clipping strictly due to overpicking then it's a soundguy issue, period. There's no way he should have you jacked up so much that a slightly harder picking would boost you over the edge. That's good that you have the mixing board onstage to adjust you're own mix. That's the way we do it. It keeps me from having to bother someone else to fix my mix. The levels in your ears are important, but what's sometimes more important is the panning. Where you sit in your own ears can make a huge difference. You don't want to be competing for space with other instruments. Most Steel players like to hear themselves right down the middle with everyone else spaced out. I don't really like my sound dead down the middle, but that's just me. Second guessing your own playing when it's not really the problem totally sucks. Yeah, we can all work to be better players. That will be true until the day we die. Getting everyone's levels good out front is a quick fix, and sounds like the primary issue you're having. Hopefully things are sounding better now.
-Jeff |
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Vernon Hester
From:
Cayce,SC USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 6:04 am Pod Xt
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I used a Pod into the mixer the last couple yrs.
I use a balance cable Left and Right Tip-Ring-Sleeve into 2 chs one panned hard left,the other panned hard right. and always insert a 1/4 jack into the earphone monitor of the Pod.This keeps the unit in a studio mode output.
Never had any level problems.
I am now using a Revelation with lexicons into the mixer.
Vern |
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Richard Marko
From:
Dallas, Texas
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 8:20 am
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Thanks guys !!
I'm so glad to say the gig we did this past week went so well I actually enjoyed playing and had a great time !!!
Low and behold it was the "trim" pot on mixer this guy had set to 12 o' clock while the other POD users in the band were set next to zero !!!
On the sly I set it down next to zero and then set my POD levels and all was well.
It is so hard dealing with a hard headed knuckle brain that just won't listen and give something a try instead they get offended that someone knows more than them !!!
The in-ears I'm buy time till I get a good headphone amp, thinking of Aphex 454 - after that I will look into Shure E-5 buds but I hear that the Westone UM2 are even better than the Shures and cheaper ??? |
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Jonathan Cullifer
From:
Gallatin, TN
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 12:02 pm
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I've known people to set trim pots so that the faders of a "perect" mix are all at unity...unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
Are you just running Guitar->Pod->Mixer? If so, the input gain the board will have to be turned down anyway because the Pod's output is a good bit hotter than the pickups themselves. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 12:57 pm
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| Quote: |
| Low and behold it was the "trim" pot on mixer this guy had set to 12 o' clock while the other POD users in the band were set next to zero !!! ... On the sly I set it down next to zero and then set my POD levels and all was well. ... It is so hard dealing with a hard headed knuckle brain that just won't listen and give something a try instead they get offended that someone knows more than them !!! |
Yup, this is totally typical and totally annoying. I have to deal with this from time to time, and the usual response I get from the "knuckleheads" is, "Hey, I know how to do sound - you play your guitar and I'll worry about the sound." If only that was true. I've changed board settings on the sly, but if they catch me they get pretty PO'd. I decided a while back that I'd rather not deal with these kind of clowns, and try to avoid them like the plague. |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 1:53 pm
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Richard,
I hope if nothing else came of this thread, you've gotten the idea that when there's a "problem," beyond a brief check of your settings to be sure you're doing nothing differently than you always have, the LAST thing on Earth you ever want to do is to 2nd guess your playing ability.
You've gotten this far by being confident in your abilities, and THAT is the thing that will keep you going and growing in your skills sets. You need to enjoy your music, and be confident without being arrogant. Sometimes it may be tough to put it all forward in a friendly package, but once again, you've come a long way to get where you are, so trust your instincts and then by all means, HAVE FUN! 
Best regards,
...z 
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
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Richard Marko
From:
Dallas, Texas
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Posted 16 Jul 2008 3:33 pm
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Hey - everybody on this forum are so cool and very helpful !!!
This has been my third week on the forum and I cease to be amazed at the help, support and education I've picked up by the many members !!!
I hope the threads I've written on using the POD and experiences prevent anyone else from dealing with an issue that makes you not enjoy playing and being miserable (just ask my girl, she put up with so much yet stood beside and supported me)!!! 
Goes to show, no matter how old you are, you always learn from experiences - good and bad.
I will never /ever let someone make me doubt my god given ability to play steel again and move on to a better environment next time someone makes me unhappy and doubt myself, and THIS GOES FOR EVERY STEEL PLAYER ALSO !!!
Read what Zeek said and take it to heart, he is 110% correct !
Thank You all again !!!!!
Rich  |
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Danny Crelin
From:
Wylie, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2008 1:43 pm
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Assuming your soundman is competent........
Now that's a good one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________
Steel Player for Matt “The Cat” Hillyer
RAINS D-10 - Amp - Seat |
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Richard Marko
From:
Dallas, Texas
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Posted 25 Jul 2008 4:48 pm
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Well it even got better, the band leader/ sound man - Randy Allen fired me and the lead guitarist.
This guy has been through 12 musicians in the year I've known him !!
Guess my number was up ?? !!
What a load off my chest and I can sleep good at night now !!!
Now I'm on the look out for a new gig, let me know if one pops up !!!
Thank;
Rich |
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Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
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Danny Crelin
From:
Wylie, Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2008 7:43 am
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I'll keep my ears open for ya pal... Rest easy, at least you don't have to wear the "ear koozies" anymore.... And think of this, By getting rid of you - the sound guy is the star of the band now, like most of 'em think they are anyway. Judging by the gigs dude has scheduled, why does he even "PAY" someone for nothing. FOH can be maintained from the stage like our band does when we are required to. Anyway keep your head up and you'll find something. Good luck and keep in touch.
Danny
_________________
Steel Player for Matt “The Cat” Hillyer
RAINS D-10 - Amp - Seat |
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Danny Crelin
From:
Wylie, Texas, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2008 7:52 am
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Sorry I just re read your post and didn't see the first time that "Randy" is the sound guy too. I'm in Colorado and hungover so I apologize.
_________________
Steel Player for Matt “The Cat” Hillyer
RAINS D-10 - Amp - Seat |
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Richard Marko
From:
Dallas, Texas
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Posted 26 Jul 2008 8:12 am
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Hey Danny - I just checked out the band's website, you guys sound great and I plan to check you guys out when your back in town.
Hell I got time now to take in some of the better talent in the area now and practice by myself for awhile to improve my chops.
I'll look forward to meeting you soon and drink a few man !!!
Later;
Rich |
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