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Topic: Intonation |
Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 5:13 am |
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| Michael - to be sure I understand your question are you saying that when you play the 5th string at the 12th fret marker vs. the 4th string open that it is sharp so you have to flat it to get it to sound "in tune"? If so then I think this is simply the amount sharp that that string gets from deflection. Assuming, of course, that the fret markers on your guitar are in the correct spot, which I would think is the case. The only remedy to this that I know of is to get a guitar that allows for individual string compensation. Good luck with that one! |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 5:30 am
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Gary, thanks. Let me try again. In order for the interval at the 12th fret to be in tune, the interval has to be out of tune open, with the 5th string being noticeably flat to the 4th string. If I tune the open interval correctly, at the 12th fret the 5th string is noticeably sharp to the 4th string. The gauges I use are .014 and either .017 or .018. Does that help clarify my question?
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 5:39 am
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Make sure that you are applying even pressure on the bar. If the heel of the bar has more pressure, it will cause the notes closer to the heel of the bar to be sharper than those which are closer to the bullet.
Karlis |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 6:15 am
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If you are able to do correct bar pressure....which Michael you certainly are of that calliber....then I wouldn't think that is the issue.
I would look at the parallel of the rollers to the fret markings....>measure from first string roller to center of 12th fret; then measure 10th string roller to center of 12th fret...and see if that is exactly parallel.
Then also where the string is laying on the finger....are both string laying right in the middle of the finger....and fingers are pointing/parallel with rollers...
Those small miss-calculations can make that difference when fretting.
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Mike Cass
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 6:24 am
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Mikey,
If youre speaking of your p/p guitar, the scale is on, no need to check it.
Here's the deal on this problem; if you'll look lenghtwise down the keyhead roller assembly from treble to bass you'll see that none of the strings(esp concurrent plain ones)come off of the rollers at the same point, thus, your scale is off on certain strings as you go higher up the neck, as Ricky said. Short of inventing adjustable rollers, I check intonation at the 8th fret after open tuning the guitar.
The 8th fret is in about the middle of the usual playing surface(minus trips into "Hugheyland")
and tweaking your tuning at fret 8 should at least minimize your current problem. No way to totally alleviate it, but this does help me.
ps. a full set of gauged rollers might help you a bit as well, along with the 8th fret tweak and trying the other gauges you were asking about. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 7:59 am
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Wow; great info from Mike Cass of course...awesome man....you are so much da'Man.
As our ears get better and more sensitive towards proper intonation; unfortunately that what we find out more...is how the pedal steel has so many variables....
Reducing those variables as much as possible is great; but, to me; there will always be "give and take" throughout intonation up and down the neck with any given pedal/knee combination at any time.
Just hearing and being able to hear these small flaws; is a rewarding thing; inthat, you will know what to do at any "give and take" situation that comes up in your playing of these "imperfect" pedal steel guitars....and that is a "GOOD THING".
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 8:47 am
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| Now I better understand your question Michael but I still think the cause is string deflection from the amount of bar pressure needed to produce a clean tone. Ever notice how much more compensation a plain third string on a 6 string electric guitar needs than the second string? It makes sense that your 5th is that much more sharp at the 12th fret marker than your 4th. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 9:16 am
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I think it's because the strings aren't parallel with each other. They fan out and get further apart...
No, wait, that was a different discussion.  |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 9:22 am
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| Quote: |
| It makes sense that your 5th is that much more sharp at the 12th fret marker than your 4th. |
I'm not sure I see why the changes in intonation from string deflection would be noticable only between the 4th and 5th strings. Based on this reasoning, why wouldn't it be even more noticable with an unwound 6th string (usually .020 or .022)? Guitar string compensation at a given action is generally a fairly linear function of string gauge for a type of string - i.e., wound or unwound.
In fact, if that was the source, it seems to me that intonation differences would be most noticable at the transition between unwound and wound strings, which, on E9, would be between the 6th and 7th strings (using a plain 6th) or between the 5th and 6th strings (using a wound 6th).
Very interesting thread. If I listen carefully, I can hear small but noticable intonation errors up the neck no matter how carefully I tune the guitar or set the bar. How much of that is me and how much is the guitar is open to question. I agree that hearing better and finding ways to adjust up there is critical. Carry on. 
| Quote: |
| I think it's because the strings aren't parallel with each other. They fan out and get further apart... |
Hey, I think we beat that one completely dead a while back.  |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 9:41 am Re: Intonation
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| Michael Douchette wrote: |
| Is this common? I use an .014 and either .017 or .018 on 4 and 5. To have the intonation correct at fret 12, 5 has to be noticeably flat to 4 open. Suggestions to help remedy this? |
If the interval sounds good on the open strings, how does it sound at the first fret? |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 9:43 am
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| Is it just as bad with new strings? |
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John Groover McDuffie
From:
LA California, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 9:43 am Intonation
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| In the words of the late great Red Rhodes "Once you put you left hand on it all bets are off!" |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 10:47 am
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| Over the years, have you polished the tops of the changer fingers, and perhaps altered the 'Top Dead Centre' of the 5th finger, thus shortening the scale length of the 5th string, making it progressively sharper the higher up the fretboard you go ? |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 11:05 am
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I believe I remember reading that on some Emmons the nut rollers had off-center axle holes. This was to allow some adjustment to the roller height for different string gauges. But if you think about it, that would also allow the rollers to be different distances forward and backwards. That could create this problem.
I have always tweaked my tuning by ear toward the middle of the neck, and by coincidence I also chose the 8th fret (C on E9), just as Mike C. suggested. There are very slight tuning alterations because of the different reactions of the different gauged strings to bar pressure, no matter how even the bar pressure is. But I don't notice this on adjacent strings as Mike describes, and not on the higher strings. I mostly notice it on the lowest couple of strings on C6 or a uni.
My bet is on something funny either at the nut rollers or the changer finger tops. |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 2:17 pm
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| Here is an interesting little experiment some of you might want to try. I just did this myself and I would be interested in hearing about your results as well. First use your Petersen tuner or what ever good quality one you have to tune all your strings pretty much spot on open and then, using your eagle eye to the best of your ability, place the bar exactly over the 12th fret using line of site from the best viewing angle you can get. I checked all 12 strings on my ext. E9 tuning and got pretty much the result I expected. How about you? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 2:18 pm
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| is this a steel that you've played well for years and you just recently started to notice this? |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 4:07 pm
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It is my opinion that, not only does bar pressure affect string intonation more as one comes closer to the bridge with the bar due to the variation of string tension, but it also will it shorten the string and thus bring it out of scale (off fret), because the point of tangent at the bridge is moved to the left on a pedals steel's changer finger as the string is pushed down (wrapped around the finger slightly). Closing in on the bridge with the bar, this effect can shorten the string's effective scale quite dramatically compared to the frets remaining.
Both effects can differ depending on the string gauge, it's tension and tendency to it's pitch being affected by tension differences. E. g: a 6th string G# at o.022p on E9th will typically be the most instable to tension differences, yet it may be pushed down less due to bar pressure, hence it's shortening effect at the bridge may be less than when the same pressure pushes is applied on an other sting.
... J-D. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 5:14 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...noticeably flat |
That's a little vague. Flat using a tuner? Flat per your ear?
Has this problem always existed? Is it getting worse?
Okay, to start with, how do the opens compare with 12th fret harmonics? If there's no problem with the strings or the guitar, there will be extremely little difference between the two. If there is a significant difference between the two, then you know the problem isn't being caused by a playing technique. The nature of the instrument is that we have to make many minor adjustments to get proper intonation when using the bar. To me, a problem is indicated when we can't get good intonation, even when making these "adjustments". |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 7:33 pm
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Donny, flat with both. I can hear it and see it. Let me try another clarification. (I never thought this would be this hard.) If I tune the interval beatless at fret 8, it has the wa-wa-wa of being out of tune open. The B note is flat to the E at that point. At the 12th fret, it then has the wa-wa-wa of being out of tune, BUT the B note is slightly sharp to the E.
Is THAT finally clear?
Always been there, never any better or worse.
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Jul 2008 7:50 pm
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Quote>The B note is flat to the E at that point. At the 12th fret, it then has the wa-wa-wa of being out of tune, BUT the B note is slightly sharp to the E./Quote
Mike - Maybe you need to move the frets till it works out
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