old fender psgs

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Okay, I am really diggin the unique tone of these but know near nothing about em and am looking for any info or tips on possibly purchasing one.
whats the diff between the 400 and 800?
I guess they come in diffferent scales? which scale is preferable?
what would a reasonable price be for a 400 in decent shape?
anything to watch out for or any other tips or suggestions or other websites to visit for info would be most welcome. I guess these guitars might take a little work to make playabvle/maintain?

Like i said , about all I know about em is I am loving their unique tone.
thanks-

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

The following picture is a Fender 400 bought new in the early '50's

The next picture is a picture of a Fender 1000 from the early '50's

These are the stats on the 400/1000 model Fenders:

1. "400" Single-8 string, single raise/single lower that came standard with 4 pedals.

2. "1000" Double-8 string, single raise/single lower that came standard with 8 Pedals.

They had a heavily fortified wraparound aluminum frame and were all Ash in color; and both models could be ordered with up to 10 pedals; but this had to be done at the factory. Although Fender made one custom with 11 pedals for Curley Chalker when he played with Hank Thompson.

These guitars did NOT have "cabinet drop" due to their aluminum frames.

These guitars did not use a moving (rolling) type bridge. Rather the pulling fingers pulled the strings across a fixed bridge, which had a tendency to break strings permaturely.

Later Fender came up with a roller bridge that would replace the fixed bridge. While it helped a little bit, there was NO way one could keep a .011 on there without severe premature breaking.

This was particularly true when we added the high G# to A pull after Ralph Mooney knocked our socks off using this change on sooo many hit recordings with Wynn Stewart and Buck Owens.

Because of this, some tuned down to D9th instead of E9th, to try and eliminate string breakage.

Then Fender redesigned the changer to a "Sho-Bud' type moving bridge changer (standard today on most PSG's), and that eliminated the severe premature string breakage.

Here are the stats on these upgraded models:

1. "800" single 10, Double raise/Double lower with 6 pedals standard.

2. "2000" Double 10, Double raise/Double lower with 8 pedals standard.

3. They came in a sunburst finish with black frame and black redesigned pedals.

(Note: They then started making the 400's and 1000's in this color with the new changer, black frame and black redesigned pedals.)

The 800's and 2000's came with a "unique" Muting lever which could place a felt "mute" over the strings for a "Spanish" staccato type of sound. It was not well received and most took it off.

Both guitars could be ordered with up to 10 pedals, but only at the time of purchase. No knee levers were ever offered on any of these PSG's

However, some players did add them. Check out the following picture of what fellow SG forumite Michael Johnstone did to a model "800" Fender with 6 pedals.

Michael did an incredibly good job when he added these 6 knee levers to this guitar. A tip of the hat for such professional and high quality workmanship.

Finally, these instruments had a "west coast" type of "country" sound. They were perfect for such players as Ralph Mooney, Dan Dugmore, and Sneaky Pete Klienow. Dan may have (I am not sure) played a Fender PSG on Linda Rhonstadt's "Blue Bayou". Not sure. But whatever it was the break Dan took is considered by some (I included) to be one of the greatest ever.

Some of the Nashville players like Buddy Emmons (when he was with Little Jimmy Dickens) played them. There was a story that went around yrs ago, that one night Buddy got so exasperated with his Fender 1000, that at the end of the show, he pushed back in his chair and kicked that Guitar right into the orchestra pit.

I wondered if the story was true. So one night in Stlouis a few yrs ago, I asked him about it. He grinned a little and said, "Well it must be true if they said it." I am still not sure sure whether that was a yes or a no. But then that's Buddy Smile

Ya gotta love him!

Inahway, as the "Nashville Sound" came more into vogue, in the late 50's and 60's, Sho-Bud's and Emmons' stole the show, and this IMO, is why Fender got out of the PSG business. Since their sales plummeted as players 'opted for the "gotta have" PSG's that the "new kids on the block" such as BE and Jimmy Day were playing. Very Happy

Prices generally on ebaY now:

400's=300's to 500's

1000's=400's to 800's

800's=400's to 600's

2000's=500's to 900's

Condition means a lot as is the case on most used items.

They are indeed heavy. This is why the 1000's/2000's came in two cases.

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

I've heard those things are heavier than bank vaults Sad

_________________
Primitive Utility Steel

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

not to sound like a jerk, but i think dan dugmore played on 'blue bayou'.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

oops, I do think you are correct.

I am very sorry. I will change it immediately. I even seem to recall BE remarking about that on this forum. Somehow I had Pete on my mind. Cuz he did play on some of Linda's recordings. But I do believe now that it was Dan.

Thanks for picking up on that.

sorry bout that!

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Are you sure it was a 400 on Blue Bayou? Not to be argumentative, but sounds like 10 strings to me. A very early youtube of Linda R. shows Danny D.playing a D10. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f78bKXzALXo

JP
_________________
Carter,PV,Fender

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

nope, Check out my edited post. Sorry once again for the blurb Embarassed

And Ben, check out my revised post.

The name is carl. But my wife, my kids and all my relatives call me "pat". Since the middle name is "patrick". My mom would have a fit, if she heard me called "carl". But that is what I am called now by everyone but the above.

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ben,

In the 60's, Speedy West (who was a player rep for Fender at the time) went around the country handing out those roller bridges (and roller nuts) along with some "Hog" connectors to keep the ball end of the strings from breaking at the changer fingers.

There was a hole in the finger that the string ball went thru. It caused the string to be bent at a sharp right angle at the ball end. This also caused some premature breakage. The hog connectors were designed to cure this.

The connector looked like fat "C" hooks. The original 400's and 1000's did not come with them. Sadly, I found they did little to cure string breakage.

When the upgraded changer models came out, it was indeed a blessing. A PSG player in Ftlauderdale, FL had just bought a new Fender, model 2,000 in the the late 60's, and the late Gene O'neal (Charlie Pride's PSG player in Charlie's rise to fame) and I went to see the guitar. The player let Gene sit in on stage for one set. And it was a real treat for me and that player. Gene made it sing.

'Course it did not have any knee levers and that was tough on Gene. But he was sooo good, that the band and audience never knew it. Gene was playing a Sho-Bud with 9 pedals and 2 knee levers at the time. He had just received the guitar and it was a beauty.

Judy Lynn (who Gene was playing for at the time) glued on a costume jewelry diamond in the middle of each "card" symbol on the front of the guitar. Gene was proud as a peacock.

It really was impressive.

I was really impressed with the new improved changer of the Fender 2000 PSG, as I was having a devil of a time breaking strings on my 400 pictured ealier, and I loved the sunburst finish. I also loved the "mute" lever. Even though most had little to no use for it. Gene didn't say much about it.

That steel player, I seem to recall, was named, "Billy Poe". But I am not sure.

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

ah, I think I am beginning to understand. so the 800 has two more pedals and the improved changer? that sounds like the ticket then.

I was hoping it would be lightwieght (I really shoulda known better if I thought about it for half a second), but its not a dealbreaker for me as it would probably spend the majority of its time at home. I'm certainly in no rush to get one...was just admiring the unique tones and began g.a.s.-ing for one. the prices you mentinoned seem reasonable to me, tho I would Imagine buying such a complex machine off ebay might come with its own set of problems, especially for the uninitiated.

again , many thanks for the info.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Ben, there is a Fender forum at http://scaryoak.com/forum/index.php

Also you failed to pick up on Carl's most important differentiation between the 400/1000 and the 800/2000 series, the former were 8 string and the latter were 10, albeit single or twin neck as designated..
_________________

Steelies do it without fretting

CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buyâ€”â€”>

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

good grief you are right Basilh, dont know how I missed that. gonna go check out that fender forum now. I can only hope they know half as much as you guys do.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

um....that forum seems to have been hit hard by porn spammers. every single one of the first 100 posts is a porn advertisement...or else I registered to the wrong site Embarassed

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The old Fenders were made of heavy lumber, not the thin boards that everyone else used, so they have some real heft to them. The doubles were so heavy that Fender (wisely) split the cases, and you carried the pedal board, rods, and legs in one case, and the guitar body in another.

Prices depend on the model and the condition, going from a low of about $450 to a high of about $1150. There's one on ebay now that's in pretty good shape, except for the somewhat overzealous refinishing.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I just watched and listened to that "old Utube" of Linda and "Blue Bayou" twice through.

There is no question it is a D-10 in the video, and it sure appears to be a Sho-Bud. But what I am not sure about is: if that is what Dan used on the original recording.

Does anyone know for sure?

Also, there is definitely the use of the so-called "chromatic" strings typical on a D-10. However, some PSG players put those strings on Fender 400's and 1,000's, which only had 8 strings.

I will have to admit that the original recording sounds like a Fender PSG to me. But then what do I know? Confused

All I really know is I could listen to Linda sing that song with Dan's backup, over and over and over again......and it still brings chills to my spine. What a song! What a Singer! And what a steel player!

I do not care for most Rock, but Linda could sing to me all night and all day long. She to me is the "Connie Smith" of Rock and Roll.

Thanks for posting that link of Linda doing that. I have never seen her do it. So that was a wonderful surprise; and a real treasure for me. Is there a way I can save that video to my PC. I would love that!

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Dan used a Sho-Bud ProII on Blue Bayou.
And very well, I might add.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Thank you Skip.

So that settles that! Whoa!

_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Robert Leaman · From: Murphy, North Carolina, USA

Carl,

I've missed your exceedingly objective, informative posts. I believe everyone here missed your knowledge as well.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

TY Robert.

C.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Hey Carl. Welcome back. It's good that you've decided to rejoin us.

How's the Excel working out?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Ty Mike,

Nice to hear from you.

I sold the Excel last week on the forum, because I am picking up my new one in Stlouis this Labor day weekend.

I hope you are doing well dear friend.

Thanks again,

c.
_________________
A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

On that Blue Bayou steel solo, it sounds like the guitar had the lever that raises the 1st string F# to G. On an old Fender with cables, this could have been done very easily.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

[quotePrices generally on ebaY now:

400's=300's to 500's

1000's=400's to 800's

800's=400's to 600's

2000's=500's to 900's [/quote]

Those are MILES off. I haven't seen a $300 400 in 10 years!

Those prices would be for junk guitars, modded guitars, or seller-mistake "buy it now" pricing. I've sold PARTS for more than that!

Ben, there are a bunch of us on the forum who actually play these on a day-to-dy basis; some in E9 or D9, but may others in A6 (Fender's "stock" tuning" and Sneaky Pete's B6 (many. many players have gone this direction.). Good info sources are Baz, Gerald Pierce, Ed Bierly, Russ Tcak, Jay Fagerlie, Dave Zirbel and Donny Hinson - there are many others but these are a few who know their stuff (I guess I'll throw myself in as well).

If you want to play somewhat traditional steel, stick with the short-scale (ti's the only way they came ( 800 or 2000 10-string models. Knee levers are easy to add, and you can change a whole copedent in minutes!

However -

Most Fender fans will steer you to the earlier long-scale models. They play a little stiffer (but can be easily adjusted) but the tone and sustain is far better than on the short-scale models...and I've had plenty of both. It's also MUCH easier to find long-scale parts, as few of the short scale types were made in comparison.

You can tune an 8-string 400 to part of Sneaky's B6 and find enough normal country stuff, plus a TON of rock, blues, and country-rock riffs to keep you going for decades.

Prices have gone WAY up though - I have no idea where those prices came from (and eBay is NOT the only selling outlet.), as we track them daily. A decent 4-pedals, long scale 400 in stock shape will run $650 and up; a 1000 (2 8 string necks) around a grand. short scale mode;s bring in a hundred or two less. Th 10 string models are generally less desirable unless they are in pure mint collector condition, and prices don't differ much from the 8-strings.

There's on real pretty refinished 400 on eBay right now for around $900, and I'll bet it sells.

Ben, in regards to the Fender site Jay and I are working to eradicate the problem. It's taking far more time than we anticipated but in another week or two it will be back in order! I apologize for the mess - those spambots are hard to trick.

If you want, email me and I'll give you the whole lowdown on models, parts, mods, maintenance etc since it's too hard t find on the site!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Thanks Jim. I had a feeling those ebay prices were too good to be true. But $650 and up for a 400 still doesnt sound all that bad. I am in no big hurry as I still have plenty to do with my SD10 E9th, so i can afford to be patient and find a good deal hopefully.
My interest in this particular guitar would be both trad west coast style country ala mooney, AND I'd dearly love to explore some other tunings and get some rockin stuff goin ala sneaky.

I've got sooo much to do, sooo much to learn still.
What I am gonna do i think is just keep my eyes open for a good deal, be really patient, and when i see something..consult you good folks for some quick advice. At least now i know a tiny bit more about these wonderful sounding guitars that really caught my ear. Truthfully it was hearing em in person that flipped on the "ME WANT!" button for me.

Thanks for all your help everyone. When i see a potential new love, I will bring her here for your blessings first before tying the knot.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic