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Topic: Adjustable Roller Nut |
Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 12:59 pm |
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Proto type roller nut. If these pics show up I will write a little about it. Martin.
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Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 1:14 pm Adjustable rollers
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Guess the picture thingie is working now. Anyway I made this to try in the next steel. I dont have the rollers installed yet. It,s simple and straight forward, each roller post is adjustable from the bottom of the guitar. A small slot must be cut in the deck behind the keyhead. the posts are held tight with no side or forward movement by the spring steel leaf springs inside the houseing. I machined a .040 wall between each post so they dont touch each other and .040 " made the string spaceing come out perfect. Easy to clean, just pull out post with roller when changing one or all strings. The adjusting socket head screws are lined up exactly halfway between the A and B pedal shaft, so no space problems adjusting with allen wrench. I dont even need grooved rollers with this and can get a perfect flat plane on top of the strings at the first fret. No string buzz or rattle and having to mash the bar down at the first fret. Always open for critisim or suggestions. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 1:39 pm
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Looks beautiful.
I like it.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 1:53 pm
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| Martin I like this a lot. No more custom rollers for each string gauge. I do think that you may well end up with grooved rollers to maintain proper string spacing since it seems like they would have a tendency to want to "walk" in the direction that the tuning key is pulling it but this is good innovative thinking. If you changed co pedant or even just tried a new gauge string you could adjust this back to flat easily enough and be done with it! Nice going. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 2:02 pm
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Very impressive!
Now for my question to you. The nut end of the guitar is very critical to the overall tone of the guitar and the sustain. Even though you put the bar down on the strings and move it around you still depend on the downward pressure at the roller to transfer SOME string energy into the body. With a traditional roller set up you have the roller assembly sitting on the top plate (body) of the guitar and the strings are making downward pressure transferring onto the top plate. With your setup, you have to rout out an opening in the top plate UNDER the roller assembly in order to access the screws for adjustment. That would change the energy transfer of the string drastically. The roller is in effect suspended between the screws in the side of the keyhead with the bottom of the roller assembly no longer making direct contact with the top plate.
Before I continue on, am I seeing/analyzing this correctly looking at the pic you posted?? |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 2:59 pm Rollers
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GARY C.. Yes you will have to have some groove in the rollers but not made to fit that guage string. Also if you had a , say- # 32 on the 10 th string and a roller for that string that was grooved especially for a # 32, and you wanted to change to a # 34 or #36 you could. All you have to do is lower the post with an allen wrench a little and you are back with a flat surface again. BILL H. I see what you are talking about. The posts have hard and solid contact with the post houseing which is bolted flat on to the keyhead, which of course is bolted flat onto the deck. Also the post houseing where it goes down through the deck will be precision routed so that it is a snug fit with the wood on all four sides. I had thought of that as a potential problem area but believe with all the snug body contact there will be no loss of energy through the posts. I have another guitar body already made and will install this nut shortly. We will just have to wait and see, I really dont expect any problems. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 3:16 pm
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Martin, This looks like a new innovation for sure.
The way I see it from reading it once is that it accomplishes the level plane for the strings..level at the roller end.
As you slide the bar up towards the changer, will the strings go off level as you approach it? I mean the different thickness of the string will dictate off-level by the time the strings hit the fingers. In essence, is this so minuscule that it is hardly worth my mention?
Now I want to expand on your idea.
Regular guitars have the intonation set up by adjusting the scale length for each string at the bridge by moving each individual one with a screw.
Could the same be accomplished on a pedal steel by having this adjustment in the roller end? In other words, that you made those rollers adjustable forwards and backwards also?
Just a thought, I might be way off the track here... |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 3:44 pm
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| Bent Romnes wrote: |
Now I want to expand on your idea.
Regular guitars have the intonation set up by adjusting the scale length for each string at the bridge by moving each individual one with a screw.
Could the same be accomplished on a pedal steel by having this adjustment in the roller end? In other words, that you made those rollers adjustable forwards and backwards also?
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Bent; A while back MicroFrets Guitars in Frederick Maryland tried having an adjustable for intonation nut. In practice most of the intonation adjustment typically needs to be done on the bridge side of the bar/fret to compensate for pitch shift due to string deflection (email me off-List if you want an explanation of the Physics). On a PSG the benefits of having an adjustible scale on the nut end would be negligible.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 3:58 pm
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| Gary Cosden wrote: |
| Martin I like this a lot. No more custom rollers for each string gauge. I do think that you may well end up with grooved rollers to maintain proper string spacing since it seems like they would have a tendency to want to "walk" in the direction that the tuning key is pulling it but this is good innovative thinking. |
Gary; I have often wished for groved changer finger to reduce "walk" on my bass strings particularly on my low-E string. I currently use a .100 gauged E-string; but the "walk" probelem was far worse when I was using a .080 (OEM specification) gauged string.
The new Williams Changer fingers put the ball-end much closer to the apex of the changer finger which may reduce the "walk" a bit. If anyone can confirm this I would like to read your thoughts/experiences.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 4:51 pm
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| Eugene I don't see why you could not compensate the guitar from the nut end. Scale length is scale length regardless of what side of the bar you are playing. Every example of a compensating nut I have seen has been on a classical guitar and the idea there is to fix the intonation issue that a lot of players are not even aware of - that is when you compensate the bridge correctly the only two places the guitar is truly in tune is open and the twelfth fret. As you play from the twelfth fret towards the nut the intonation becomes progressively sharper and the compensating nut mostly corrects this. I don't know of anyone building a guitar that ONLY compensates from the nut end but I don't see why it would not work or why it would not be as effective as a compensating bridge. I guess if you really want to get picky about intonation you need to compensate from both ends but doing it from the bridge end has served the guitar world well enough even though it does not, as most people seem to think, completely correct intonation issues from string deflection. |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 5:34 pm
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| Gary Cosden wrote: |
Eugene I don't see why you could not compensate the guitar from the nut end. Scale length is scale length regardless of what side of the bar you are playing.
I don't know of anyone building a guitar that ONLY compensates from the nut end but I don't see why it would not work or why it would not be as effective as a compensating bridge. |
Gary; I emailed you off-Forum as intonation is not on-topic in this thread about roller-nuts. Start a new thread on this topic if you want to explore this topic further. I am sure that such a thread would yeild a great discusioion.
It is true that "scale length is scale length regardless of what side of the bar you are playing"; however scale length changes every time you move the bar.
Regards
-E
Last edited by Eugene Cole on 20 Jun 2008 7:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 7:36 pm
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| Eugene Cole wrote: |
It is true that "scale length is scale length regardless of what side of the bar you are playing"; however scale length changes every time you move the bar.
-E |
But the compensation you would make on the open strings works equally with bar movement. You don't need to recompensate every time you move the bar. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2008 9:13 pm
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Intonation compensation on a standard guitar is needed because of the downward deflection of the string to press it to the fret stretching the string. Presumably such deflection on a steel guitar is, or should be, much less, especially on a steel with graduated rollers, making intonation compensation effectively unnecessary.
Are the differences in string gauges between different sets for the same tuning big enough to require different graduations of roller height? (e.g. .038 vs. .036 for 10th string B on E9th?) |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2008 8:15 am
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Martin; what is the location and orientation of the spring steel leaf springs inside the housing?
-E |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 20 Jun 2008 8:54 am
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| Brint, if the gauged grooves are V shaped, I don't think the small gauge variations between brands makes much difference. But if they are U shaped, you could end up with a string that doesn't fit down in the groove, or one that is too loose and rattles. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 20 Jun 2008 9:00 am
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| Regarding intonation compensation on steel guitars, if I tune the open strings of my S12U very carefully, then with the bar toward the center of the neck, they are no longer perfectly in tune. It is a very subtle difference, but the lowest couple of strings are a little sharp from bar pressure. I suppose bridge intonation compensation could correct that, but it would be very difficult mechanically, might adversely affect tone, and probably not worth the effort. |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2008 9:05 am Springs
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Eugene C. the Leaf springs are made from 1/4 X.025 spring steel. I just slide it in (with the hump towards the post) at the same time I insert the post. It is quite a strong spring and holds the entire post flush and tight inside the houseing. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2008 6:43 pm
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Martin thanks for the details on the springs.
I did not say this before (it goes without saying): nice design and nice machine work! As soon as a I saw your pictures my first thought was that I wished my steels had that feature.
Regards
-- Eugene |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 22 Jun 2008 2:05 am
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Eugene, whatever happed to Micro Frets? I used to live in Laurel and remember seeing teveral of those guitars.
Back to Mike's innovative invention. It sounds like a great idea, especially for the C6th neck with the larger strings. |
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Roy Thomson
From:
Wolfville, Nova Scotia,Canada
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Posted 22 Jun 2008 9:59 am
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It's always nice to see this issue addressed as it
has been one of my biggest problem areas with pedal
steel guitars.
The simplest answer would be for the individual
manufactures to make "GUAGED ROLLER NUTS". I bet
they would sell like hotcakes. We have guaged
steel guitar strings why not guaged roller nuts 
No doubt it would promote sales also.
_________________
Custom Tabs Various Tunings
Courses Lap Steel, Pedal Steel |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 22 Jun 2008 12:04 pm
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Many brands of Steels do have gauged roller nuts. My Franklin does not and it is on purpose because of the problems Paul ran into while working at Sho-Bud and their gaugued roller nuts.
The "short" version of the story is that many Sho-Bud's had (have) problems with buzzing on certain strings. Paul experimented and found if a certain gauge roller nut was used for all the strings that it solved the problem. He presented his findings and demonstrated the problem and fix to David Jackson but David didn't want to hear about that. However later, he said David was finally convinced and Sho-Bud started using the one gauge roller and they didn't have any more complaints from customers about the string buzz problem (caused by roller nuts).
Mike's approach with the vertically adjustable nut system eliminates any potential buzzing problem (if there is any) by not needing gauged roller nuts and the strings can still be flat at the nut using the vertical adjustments. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 22 Jun 2008 5:25 pm
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| I've read the Franklin story before. Apparently this had to do with the technology limitations at Sho-Bud at the time. Many top brands today have gauged nut rollers, obtain flat strings at the nut, and have no string buzz problems (Emmons, Zum, MSA, and others). I never noticed the problem until I started playing a 12-string E9/B6 universal (Franklin doesn't make one). String gauge goes up exponentially inverse to pitch. 10-string E9 doesn't have strings low enough to be a problem. Even 12-string extended E9, is passable. But the low B string of a uni is huge. It is impossible to play the first fret, or to slide over the nut and back, without nasty bar buzz. You would think C6 players, with a similar gauge low C string would have the same problem, but they don't seem to complain. My guess is that the chords at the first fret and nut are used less frequently on C6 than on E9/B6. |
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Jim Burden
From:
Georgetown,Indiana,U.S.A.
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Posted 23 Jun 2008 3:32 am
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Mike, that is beautiful work.Are you going to use that on the body I saw,or have you built another one?
Jim Burden |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 23 Jun 2008 4:39 am Jim B.
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Hi Jim B., how are you gettin along? Are you still down in Chesawhisky ??? No The guitar you saw has been done for a while. I have another one already built but dont have a finish on it yet, and still have to machine all the mechanics. The adjustable keyhead will go on this new one I just built, I will probably install it tomorrow. Come by when you get up in this nek of the woods. Mike.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 23 Jun 2008 7:50 am Adjustable Nut versus Guaged Nut Rollers
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| I've read the Franklin story before. Apparently this had to do with the technology limitations at Sho-Bud at the time. Many top brands today have gauged nut rollers, obtain flat strings at the nut, and have no string buzz problems. |
David; I concur that guaged nut rollers can and do work fine for the people that do not stray from convention very far; gauged rollers are a cheaper and simpler way to go. But most of us do not thave the tools to make even a simple part like a roller should we go to less-standard tuning and string guages.
Martin's design has a lot of appeal to me and I look forward to hearing his thoughts about the ideal T.P.I. for the nut adjusters and other thoughts which he may have formulated a couple of months from now when he has accumulated some seat time with his new guitar.
The ability to change string guages substantially without having to make or order a replacement roller has a lot of appeal. For example the low E on my U14 is currently a .100 instead of the OEM-sized .080 and I am still looking for better options. Sierra will not return my emails much less ship me a new gauged nut roller on short notice.
_________________
Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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