Is most of the sound in the pick-up ?

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Ignoring playing technique, is the characteristic sound of an instrument created by the pickup ?

I love the sound of my 60s Sho-Buds, so when I play some of my other instruments they sound weedy in comparison. I know that they're built with swamp ash, which may help the sustain, but I think that the sound is mainly in the pickups.

If I fit an old Sho-Bud pickup on a Carter or a Miller, for instance, are they going to sound like a Sho-Bud ?

If I fit an old horse-shoe pick up on a new lap steel, is it going to sound like an old lap steel ?

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I would say no. Its in the design and construction of the guitar itself.

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

Alan - the simple answer to your question is no.

If only life was as simple as changing pickups to give a certain manufacturer's sound. A Carter will never sound like a ShoBud regardless of what is replaced on its pickup circuitry, and I expect the company concerned are quite happy with that.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Alan,
You can look at it like you would a microphone. A decent microphone can make a difference but won't make you sound like George Jones. Pickups are only a part of the sound of a steel. The same as amp choice in a way.
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Bob

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Whether mics or pickups, you can view it this way----they may approach (though never achieve) total perfection---i.e. 100% fidelity to the physical vibrations-converted-to-electrical-signal with nothing added, nothing lost, thus faithfully presenting the sound of the instrument/voice, amplified or captured to tape, disc, whatever.

Or they may accentuate and attenuate certain frequencies, altering the sound of the instrument/voice, either objectionably or, often, pleasingly (certain frequency bumps on vocal mics....).
This is why some mics/pickups work better or worser with certain voices, guitars, personal preferences. Rarely to the point of make-or-break but certainly in a way that one choice might be so-so and another might be a match made in heaven.

The Sho-Bud pickup on a Sho-Bud guitar is a combination that either is just so right or is a sound that many have come to consider 'so right' from the familiarity of its great recorded history.
It also tends to have very specific characteristics as opposed to what one might consider the somewhat more generic sound of modern pickups and steels-----not a criticism, just an observation.

And btw--Bob is completely wrong----the only reason my "He said I'll love you 'til I die" isn't exactly happening is this damned mic. It sounds dead-on perfect in the shower.

Just some espresso-brained thoughts.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

haven't we been over this a million times? ....and don't you build instruments and already know the answer?

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Changing out pickups will NOT make one guitar sound like another, but it CAN have a dramatic effect on the overall tone of the instrument. I went through 5 different pickups on my GFI S10 before finding the True Tone wound to 12k. I now love the sound of the guitar. On my strat I went through about 4 different sets of pickups before finding the right ones, but on my tele the stock SCN's sound just right.
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Primitive Utility Steel

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

...the PU will be a big percentage of the sound. But, every guitar's build and set up will equal a difference in sounds of any PU, and will overall determine to what degree the PU will produce it's own particulars to it's optimum.

I'd love to have a TrueTone dual PU, neck/bridge set up in a nice Strat.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

It's a piece of the picture. I think how much depends on how one approaches the instrument. But I still think it's mostly in the feedback loop between the ears/brain and the hands.

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Alan, honestly I wish you would try it and give us a review. A friend has tried a GL 66, true tone and a 705 in the same steel and each one sounded different. The 705 sounded the best , more like the Emmons. It would be interesting to see what a BL 705 would sound like on that old Sho-Bud.
Try it my friend.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Okay Bill, I'll try it, and let you know what happens. It'll be in a few weeks time, because I'm off to climb Mayan pyramids next week. Very Happy

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

You can look at it conversely for perspective. I had a Pro 1 with an E66 and it still sounded like a Sho~Bud. So it stands to reason that the Sho~Bud sound is about more than the pickup.
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Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

John Roche · From: England

Like Bob I play a Sierra , It's quite easy to change pickups, when I use the sierra pickup I get a compleatly different sound then the sound I get from my True Tone pickup, and no amount of tweaking the amp setting will make one sound like the other.

Paul Frank Bloomfield · From: Greece

Like john says, I swapped my ZB D11/10 for a Sierra
14-string universal and I tried to get my ZB sound
from it and failed miserably even tried a 31-band graphic EQ but to no avail. Don't get me wrong, the
Sierra was like a Rolls Royce in build but I missed
my ZB sound and was fortunate to get it back.
Frank.Corfu
_________________
" The problem with doing nothing is not knowing when you've finished "
ZBSD-10,ZB D-11/10, Franlin Tele,Epiphone customised Les Paul, 'Fender pro 185 amp.

James Kerr · From: Scotland, UK

As someone who manufactured Steel Guitars 30 years ago, and made every single part including the Pickup, never at anytime did I use an aftermarket Pickup, I might have some input here.

I experimented quite a lot in the area of Pickup's to get an acceptable sound. Variations included the guage of the wire used, the winding tension, the Flux value of the Magnets, the dimensions of the Magnets, and whether a Bar Magnet with tappings was used, or 10 individual magnets were used. My intention was not to try and imitate the sound produced by another manufacturer, if that were the plan, I would still be trying now to get it.

Without doubt Guitars such as Sho-Bud, Emmons, MSA and ZB had a sound all their own, I would call it "Sound Color". I would put that down mainly to the Pickup, because whatever sound these Guitars produced, it had to be repeatable over thousands of Instruments, I don't think consistency and quality of the other materials used, Wood and Metal would be predictable enough to give the same Instrument time & time again if they were a big factor in the "Sound Color".

I once read that Buddy Emmons sounded exactly like "Buddy Emmons" no matter what Guitar he had with him that night, how did he achieve that

Here is the sound of the 30 year old Springfield Guitar, with 15 year old strings, (well I have a Scottish heritage to live up to) I promise to replace them when they break. The pickup is 13.5K

http://www.kerrcastle.adsl24.co.uk/

Click on the "Here comes my baby" tab to download Mp3 file.

Perhaps others could let us hear the sound of various Guitars for comparison.

James Kerr.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I think one of the most OBVIOUS "sounds" that's hard to duplicate is that of Lloyd Green. Sarah Jory has, at times, come closest to doing so than anyone else I've heard. Whether or not that was a deliberate effort by her, or just quite by accident. It's a definite "sound" and I always tended to go with the pickup theory. I know it's no where to be found on my ProFex even tho' I have the latest Ken Fox mod.

SO, WHAT do you think? The Guitar? or, the pickup? Don't say, "in the hands", please.

Joaquin Murphy in his early playing appeared to have his lap Bigsby fitted with Rickenbacher pickups but I can't prove it, one way or another. His sound was more uniform on all of his guitars.

Lloyd Green's "SOUND" is still most unique.

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I'm with Bob on this. Most professional singers have tried a lot of different mics, both live and in the studio. They settle on the mics that give their voice the sound they like. It is the same voice going into the mic, just a different sound coming out. They even specify to the producer or sound company, which mic they to have for them to use, or, they even carry their own mics, particularly if it is not a common mic that might be readily available. I think the same thing applies to a steel guitar, probably in each individual guitar. I don't think that any two guitars made by the same manufacturer will have exactly the same sound. The difference may be so subtle that our ears can't hear the difference, so it is probably a moot point. So, if you try the same pickup in different guitars, I think the sound will be different in each guitar. So a pickup that sounds one way in one guitar will sound different in another guitar. As pointed out, the pickup is part of the big picture in the sound of the guitar. Tbe guitar, the amp (and settings), effects, cords, volume pedal, the room, our ears, and most certainly, the hands, all make up the total sound. All of these things working together can explain why some will buy a particular pickup and love it while somebody else installs the same pickup and are not happy with the sound.

Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Most of the sound comes out of the amp when I Play. In fact I can't hardly hear the guitar at all! I agree with Bob's and George's posts. Everybody has a different set of ears as mentioned above. In addition their taste (or even lack of) for style and material also affects the way they perceive the sound. Some people will never find it and others know it the minute they hear it. I think most of the better players have found the style and technique they like and the tone they get in a large part is due to that and affects the equipment thay choose to use. I thought one of the players in the Phoenix show had one of the best sounds in the show. I overheard him talking to a collegue that he was having a tough time getting the sound adjusted to his liking so go figure.

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

James, that sounds very nice, especially considering the 15 yr old strings.
I would ask you do this experiment:
Put new strings on your steel(providing this is ok for your Scottish heritage Smile

) Record the same song again with the same amp and settings, same recording equipment, everything. Place them side by side on the web site so we can hear for ourselves.
It would prove to be very interesting indeed.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Alternative question: Is a lot of the sound in the pickup?

I'd say no, if you limit the question to guitars and pickups on the current market. A visit to the Carter website, where they very helpfully provide a set of sound samples using different currently available pickups in the same (presumably Carter) guitar, through what they say is the same recording rig, should prove this point. The pickups include four different George L's pickups, Bill Lawrence XR-16, and a TrueTone single-coil, and the differences are very, very subtle.
I attribute this to the sameness of intent in current steel guitar, and steel guitar pickup, design.

If, on the other hand, they had put a pickup from a Fender 400 on the same guitar, I think you would hear a significantly greater difference in tone.

It seems to me (my opinion only) that the primary way the pickup can influence tone is in how much high-frequency information it will communicate to the amp. A heavily-wound pickup generally rolls off some highs compared to a lightly-wound pickup. (DISCLAIMER: If Bill Lawrence read this and cared to respond, he would no doubt be all over this assertion with an expert, deeply technical and no doubt correct refutation of the entire premise. Oh Well

)

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Most of the sound that we hear comes from the speaker. I think that the choice of speaker is at least as important as the choice of pickup. Lloyd's speaker choice (15" JBL) is a significant part of his trademark sound, in my opinion.
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