Zumsteel - How to change copedent?

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Despite being just a starter I plan on changing my copedent. Well, the pedals setup that is. Just got a Zumsteel SD10 a few weeks ago, and it has four pedals:

1A 2B 3C 4X

Where ABC is the Emmons setup. However, I find the ABC-pedals are too far left for my liking. Also comparing with photos of other steels, none with only three pedals (ABC only) have them as far left as mine. So I would change pedals to:

1X 2A 3B 4C

... and make X a Franklin pedal.

I have carefully noted what notches in the bell cranks are used and where the rods attach in the changer. So I intend to keep ABC in the same notches and changer holes as now. Except that I will shift ABC one position to the right. Sounds okay?

Even though I have written down exactly how everything is attached (knee levers too), I cannot figure out any system as to what notches or positions in the changer that are used.

Clearly the outer notches should move the most and hence change the note more. So I would have expected the outer notches to be used when the pedal changes a full tone. Neverthesless this does not seem to be the case. Am I missing something? Is there a recommended way of doing this?

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

The duplication of pulls such as 5th string A pedal raise and C pedal raise, the not-quite-duplication of pulls such as the 4th string C pedal whole step raise and the F lever half step raise, the synchronization of pulls such as syncing the 10 string and the 5th string on the A pedal, neatness in the rod travel with a minimum of crossing over/under/around..... these are some of the factors that come into play when rodding a guitar. So if you see hole choice that doesn't make sense from the single standpoint of 'best, optimal leverage' consider that there's a lot more going on.
Unless there are playability issues with the rodding I would keep it as it is (hole choice).

As long as you have a good feel for what you are doing I agree with your mission to move the ABC over one spot----for better comfort and because the '0' position is a good spot for an 'x' pedal. But part of me wants to say that you ought to stick with what you've got because as a beginner you are not in the best position to judge what feels 'right'. But you are not asking for advice on whether you should or shouldn't so forget I said it.
Good luck.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

It's a fairly easy thing to do. You need to chart out your copedant in terms of changer and bell crank positions of each pull rod.
I don't know which Zum pull system that you have. Either the pull rods have a steel pin through the ends or are right angled and are fixed w/ a cotter pin.....but no matter.

I make a chart for each pull or lower assigning both a changer position and bell crank position. I arbitrarily assign letters A-F for changer positions (A being closest to the body and F being furthest away. On a triple raise A,B,C are raises and D,E,F are lowers.......At the Bell crank I assign numbers 1-4 (or x) again with the closest hole/slot to the crosshaft labled #1 and the furthest being #4 (or whatever)...........Long story short every change should have a both letter and number coordinates

Remove the pull rod at the bell crank after noting what slot it was in. Push it out the changer about 1-3 in and you should be able to see what changer hole the rod is in.

Graph it out as you disassemble, and you should have a map for reassembly......One thing you should keep track of is the pedal stops, as you will need to transpose them by adjustment.

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

One other thing to consider before you make any changes is the position of your knee levers. Put your foot on the 3 and 4th pedals and see how far away your LKL is. You will probably find that it is positioned a little far left to work comfortably with the 1st pedal - so you might have to move your knee lever cluster as well which isn't something I would recommend to someone with limited experience.

Curt Langston · Posted 3 Jun 2008 3:42 pm

Part of the fun of pedal steel is "messin" with it from time to time.
Take your time and note which holes (bellcrank) were used. These are the same holes and positions (on the changer fingers) you will use again.

This is a nice blank rodding chart from the fine folks at Carter. Their website is a wealth of information!
Blank rodding chart

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Thanks for the comments so far. I am getting wiser all the time.

Exactly like Tony remarks above here, to me too the rocking motion from A to B is thhe hardest. Having used other pedals and then placing my foot on A in a position ready to depress B too is where I fail. Moving the pedal one step right would cure this. With a Franklin far left there will be no problem because Franklin is always used alone.

There is absolutely no problem pressing LKL (or LKL2 that I have) with my foot on pedals 3+4. But it is a bit difficult to press LKR with my foot on pedals 1+2 (the current A+B). So again the move will be an improvement.

Yes, despite being a beginner, having had to consider this move has taught me a lot about the workings of a PSG.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

My Zum U-12 came from John Olynyk with a Franklin pedal in pedal slot 1, and the A, B, and C pedals in slots 2, 3, and 4. I think I would find it uncomfortable to do the A+F move with the A-pedal in slot 1, so it's not surprising to me that you're considering this.

I like working on my steels, but I think it requires a very organized mindset. I think you're on the right track by keeping very careful track of the bellcrank and endplate leverage choices and proceeding very, very methodically. It's just a mechanism, so if you just study how each piece works, make careful notes and diagram each piece as it comes off and make sure you clearly figure out, right then and there, how to put it back on correctly, you shouldn't have any problem.

I also found Bobbe Seymour's all-pull video useful when I did my first guitar, just to get the lay of the land. I think it helps to just watch someone do it - this video does that and describes in detail the issues step by step. He's not working on a Zum, but the basic principles hold for most all-pull guitars.

David Doggett · Posted 4 Jun 2008 10:18 am

Tom, on all-pulls, unlike the bell cranks, the changer finger holes have very little effect on the throw or feel of the pedals. As long as the raises and lowers go to the appropriate part of the changer finger, the decisions on changer finger holes are mostly determined by how you want the rods to be arranged vertically. Mostly this will be determined by which bell crank holes are used. So usually rods in bell crank holes further from the body will need to go in changer finger holes further from the body. For this same reason, raises are rodded first, close to the body, and lowers are rodded last, further from the body.

Another thing to consider is that the rod lengths are determined by which pedal or lever activates them. So when you switch changes among the pedals and levers, all the switches must have the same number of rods. If they don't, you may have to order a new rod of the needed length. Since the Franklin pedal has three pulls, and the other pedals have two, you will need an additional rod for the new Franklin pedal that has the appropriate length for pedal position 1.

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

David, I am just figuring out what you tell me by reading the links to the Carter pages. Raisers first. Start with those closest to the endplate and put them as close to the strings as possible. Rods should be as horisontal as possible, so notch 1 in the bell crank goes to the uppermost raiser hole... and so on. Next the lowers should go in notch 4 to 6 and corresponding holes in endplates.

That should basically be it. But I also note a few exceptions in the Carter pages.

Now analyzing my Zumsteel, I can see generally follows the same principle. Again there are some exceptions. And a few very deviating make me wonder if a previous owner may have messed up something?

BTW. I am correct in noting that the Carter numbering system has reversed the numbers, so that with the bell crank small numbers are closest to the string, but in the endplate the largest numbers are closest to the strings? Look here:

http://www.steelguitarinfo.com/rodding/roddingsystem.html

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Hey, pictures have come back in the forum. There is picture of me and the ZUM here:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=133074&start=0

You can see that pedal 1 is in line with the third string tuner. To me it looks like most steels have pedal 1 in line with the first tuner or even the rollernut.

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Tom the position of your pedal 1 looks spot on to me. My Zums are 9 pedal jobs and my pedal 1 is in the same spot as yours -- I have the Franklin pedal in position 4. I suggest you leave it the way it is.

David Doggett · Posted 4 Jun 2008 3:42 pm

It's all a matter of personal preference. But most E9s I have had that only have 3 pedals have the first pedal in the number 2 position of the pedal rack. In fact the furthest left pedal position is often called the 0 position. It is typically blank if there are only 3 pedals. The 0 position is reserved for an additional optional pedal, typically the Franklin pedal. So moving your pedals over and putting the Franklin pedal there is very standard. But some people who want the extra pedal next to the C pedal will have the pedals arranged the way yours came. It is possible a previous owner moved the pedals one slot to the left to make room for a 4th pedal next to the C pedal, and left the knee levers in the standard position. So your rearrangement may be restoring things to the original positions. But regardless of all that, you will have to get the knee levers so they feel right for your pedal positions. If the knees were moved over to the left to fit with the pedals there, it is possible to move them over to the right to fit with your new arrangement if necessary. It's all about what feels best for you.

How the guitar is rodded in terms of the bell crank slots is also a matter of personal preference. Some people like a short stiff throw on certain pulls, and others like a long soft throw. So again, you are not locked in to what the previous owner had, which may or may not be "standard." Try leaving the bell cranks slots as they came, but if anything doesn't feel right, don't be afraid to experiment with different bell crank slots.

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Tom, I agree with Paddy, your pedals are located just like almost all of the guitars currently built. I have Fessenden, Emmons and Magnum guitars, they are set up the same way as yours.

This is a very common complaint from newer players. Looking at your picture, you are sitting with your body at the center of the guitar, you can solve your problem by shifting your seat to the right. Center your body at about the 15th fret. Here is what you will find: your left foot will now be at an angle over the A and B pedals. From this position you will find that it's much easier to work the pedals. Your left knee will be at an angle toward the pedals, the right knee will be straight toward the right knee levers. Compare that to the position of your knees in your picture. Give this a try, and you will see what I mean. Good luck.
_________________
Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree with David - it's about personal ergonomics and preference. There is no "absolutely correct" way to set things up - people are built differently. I have had people try to tell me to just work with a guitar that flat out didn't fit me - no more. Ergonomics is critical, IMO.

For me, the biggest issues are 1) the position of the A-pedal relative to the F-lever (LKL on an Emmmons setup), and 2) how far apart the levers are.

If the A-pedal is much further left than the F-lever, it can become hard to make the A+F move, for me at least. If that's a problem, then one has two choices - move the F-lever left or move the A-pedal right. I admit, that doesn't look to be a big problem in the picture you're showing, but then again, I'm not you. You need to try to assess whether you just need to practice more or if it's really out of position for you. But if it's out of position, I think it's usually easier to move the pedals over than to move the lever.

I also think every person has a range of what's comfortable in terms of how far apart the levers are, which determines the angle made by the thighs. I personally don't like having my LKL and RKR levers too far apart, since me to sit with my legs at an uncomfortably wide angle. Some people seem to like them very far apart, while others don't. Bodies are different.

I don't think any of us can make this determination for you, especially without seeing you play. I do agree with Bill M.'s positioning argument - 14th or 15th fret works for me too. But I've had guitars where that positioning made the A-pedal just too far left for me, and I had to change it.

Either way, I would try to work with it the way it is for a while before changing it around. But if it's really uncomfortable after doing that, and it seems that moving the pedals one slot right would help, I'd do it. You can get a pretty good idea by just centering your foot on B+C, in slot positions 2 and 3, and make the motions as if they were A+B - this will give you and idea how it feels as you work the pedals and levers. Just proceed slowly and see what works.

If you are very methodical about how you assess this, and then methodically and carefully make changes, then it's not a big deal to try a few things, and then even go back to the initial setup if the new setup doesn't work. To me, it's worth taking some time and trouble to get a guitar set up well for myself.

All my opinions, of course.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Thanks again for all the help. This has got to be the nicest forum of the many I have participated in. (Maybe our average age here has something to with this?)

You are right about me not sitting at fret 15. I read in a thread that most players sit there, but I forgot again. Now trying this, I admit it changes the feel to the better. Still when pretending to have moved the pedals (producing ugly dissonant chords), my guess is I would play better after the move.

This include using the F-lever. Hey, when pressing the A you get a minor chord (6 minor), and then pressing F you get the corresponding major. I have been looking for this transition without luck until now. Anyway, the F-lever combined with pedal 2 also feels more comfortable to me. I have an extra LKL1 there (raing E to F#) which troubles me a little, and that is part of what I am trying to solve.

Tony, my question about the Carter numbering system was not whether one system was better than the other. I just want to make sure I am reading their charts correctly before using their rodding suggestions on my own guitar.

... Now off to work.

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Hi Tom, I looked closer at your picture, yes it looks like your first pedal is more to the left. Still, your seating position will have a large effect on how comfortable you are on the pedals. I sat at one of mine and moved my foot more to the left, as as I would need to do on your guitar; I would have not have any problem if my pedals were exactly like yours. On the other hand, the BMI that I have has it's pedals a little more to the right than I prefer, but it still works for me. I would have a much greater problem if the pedals were too far to the right, like on some of the early Sho-Buds.

I guess the point is, you should try to adapt your position to whatever guitar you play. So much depends on the player's physical size, and height. It is easier to "rock" the pedals if your foot addresses them at an angle, with the heel hitting the floor somewhere in front of the 3rd pedal. From this position, it's easy to rotate the foot and hit the BC pedals. you might need to shift it a little for the 4th pedal. What I'm saying is, at this stage, you might be better off not making changes to the guitar. Get to know your guitar first, get as comfortable as you can, if it still doesn't work for you, maybe consider changing something. If you can locate someone near you to advise you that would be a big help. Good luck.

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Bill, the only one who knows about steels I have around here is Torben "Turbo" Koch. The one who got this Zum for me. He himself has a Franklin as the first pedal and then ABC. He does in no way encourage me to make the change, but then again, I only want to achieve what he has. So what can he say?

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

Tom I have had a look at several pics of other Zums, mostly standard 8 and 5's and they all have the 1st pedal in the same position as yours is (and mine, and Turbo's) so this is Bruce's standard position for pedal 1, regardless of what you have on it!

Easiest thing to do is leave it the way it is - and adjust your own playing position -- a lot less work and stress IMO !

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I moved all the pedals over to the right on my Zum. now my country A and B pedals are in positions 3 and 4.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

You gotta remember..... This isn't rocket science.

Take a few pictures, make a chart, note the number of turns used when changing pedal stops and shift your pedals over. Zums are fairly easy to work on and nothing you are going to do is irreversible.

If you have an electric screw driver or drill w/ a hex-head socket, some long handled (T) allen wrenches, a strobe-tuner and a few other basic tools, this is about a 3 hour job. If you don't like it....another 3 hours to set it back.......You've probably already spent that much time on the forum analyzing this move.

CAVEAT: The major pitfall is forgetting to make sure you have enough pull-rods of the correct length to accommodate all the changes on their new cross-shafts. For example, as you move the original pedal 5 changes (four bellcranks) to their new position on pedal position six, you will most likely be short 2 pullrods of that specific length.

Unless you have the tools and skills to fabricate them , you'll need to order a few length-specific pull rods from Bruce before you dig in.

Personally, I love working on steel guitars almost as much as playing them.

Tom Buur · From: Denmark

Good morning,

Last night I took out all the rods in question. Yes, I have enough in the right length. I sacrifice a compensator to use as the third rod for the Franklin. Then all numbers fit.

What's worse, I discovered my Allen wrench is too large to get between some of the closest rods. I will now go and look if should have one that can be sawed off somewhat to be used in these places. The problems is we use European metric wrenches here, so I can't just go out and buy another.

In the worst case I can return things to the original setup. I have carefully mapped everything.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Do you have an older guitar with the slotted bellcranks that have the tightening screw in the front rather than the top?.............Usually you can loosen up some of the surrounding hardware (knee lever brackets etc) and slide them along their crosshafts a few inches to gain better access. Also if you loosen up the pedal stop piece from the crosshaft you can rotate the shaft counterclockwise about 20 degrees and make the tightening screws easier to access.

I found the 5/64 and 7/64 long handled T wrenches very helpful:

http://www.eklindtool.net/Page.htm (look under products)

Post some pix, especially of the troublesome areas.

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