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Topic: Is it a contest? |
Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 17 May 2008 1:48 pm |
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In a recent thread someone said that playing music isn't a contest. Someone else insisted that, yes, it was, just like everything else.
I think they were talking about two different things, though. I know alot of people who think that the contest is to see who can play the most notes in the shortest time. I've known them to play swing and/or bluegrass so fast that they kill the feeling of the song. It's just a bunch of notes.
I think the contest is to evoke feelings in one's listeners. It is the one who does that best who is the winner. While it's true that playing extended strings of fast notes is one way to evoke a certain feeling, it's not the only way. And it's not the only feeling that we necessarily want to evoke.
Great speed is a nice addition to one's playing. But it is not necessary to excellence.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Bob Blair
From:
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 17 May 2008 3:55 pm
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| No, it's a conversation. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 17 May 2008 7:32 pm
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Good one, Bob. I like it. 
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 17 May 2008 7:49 pm Re: Is it a contest?
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| Edward Meisse wrote: |
| I think the contest is to evoke feelings in one's listeners. |
Does the feeling of anxiety count?
. |
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Mat Rhodes
From:
Lexington, KY, USA
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Posted 17 May 2008 8:10 pm
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There are two levels of acceptance: one from the "commoners" (the general non-musician audience) and one from the "elite" (steel guitarists, guitarists, etc.). I think it's natural to want to be accepted by your peers. Thus, there's the tendency to want to demonstrate prowess and earn compliments from the elite (or at least those who are "in the know"). I personally have not gotten beyond separating the two. Maybe other players have gotten to the point where it really doesn't matter any more. They play what they want.
At one time, proficiency on your instrument was expected. The overall acceptance and tolerance of mediocrity in almost everything in our current time period has more or less taken over our consciousness. So some of us old-schoolers have "deluded" ourselves into thinking that a compliment from the elite is more valuable to our self-worth than one by a commoner.
So is it a contest? I don't think so. I think it's insecurity that results from an old school desire to excel at what you do. Today it's probably an unnecessary insecurity (I'm personally glad it's still there because it's the source of drive). But like everything else, this too will pass and the pendulum will swing again in the opposite direction. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 17 May 2008 11:47 pm
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Is it a contest?
IMO, not unless you are insecure, at which point everything is a contest. I think most people are insecure to some degree, so a little headcutting isn't unusual. But I try not to let music become athletic competition.
Some peoples' opinion matters much more to me than others. The people who I look to for feedback are those who I think give me an accurate mirror, according to my musical value system. The chucklehead in the club screaming "Freebird" has absolutely no impact on me at all, no matter what they say - positive or negative. But I listen carefully to the savvy musician or listener whose playing and/or views I respect. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 18 May 2008 6:44 pm
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If you do it for money, or in front of anyone, or by yourself - it's a contest. Contests are comparisons, and making comparisons is the only way we can judge anything. One famous old saw is "You can't compare apples and oranges"...well, people do that every day. In fact, the only reason we ever ate oranges to begin with is that people wondered how they'd compare, taste-wise, to apples. "Them funny round orange thingeys might be better than an apple?"
Everything is point of view, and people will always rationalize things in one way or another to support their own likes and dislikes. We all have preferences, and it's my view that the small group of folks that say "I like everything" just don't want confrontation or arguments. 
You see (like it or not), "liking" something is a personal preference based on both opposition and past experience. If there's nothing you dislike, then you can't really like anything. There's always likes and dislikes, good and bad, black and white, ying and yang, etc., etc. One rule of the universe is, according to many, everything has an opposite. We judge good and bad music subjectively, based on past experience. It's an art form, so there's really no scientific way to quantify it.
Am I saying that, musically, we're all predjudiced to some extent? That we all have likes and dislikes, even if we care not to admit it?
Exactly!  [/i] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 18 May 2008 9:41 pm
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| Quote: |
| If you do it for money, or in front of anyone, or by yourself - it's a contest. Contests are comparisons, and making comparisons is the only way we can judge anything. |
I truly don't see how doing something for money necessarily makes it a contest. If the people involved decide to make it a contest, sure. Not everyone does this. Sometimes limited resources force people into a contest. But sometimes resources aren't limited - why waste time competing when there's nothing to gain? Other times, even when resources are limited, there simply is no contest. People can and do make decisions on other terms than competitive zero-sum game terms. Mathematically speaking, under certain conditions, cooperative games result in higher payoff equilibria than competitive games - ever hear of the Prisoner's Dilemma?
| Quote: |
| Everything is point of view, and people will always rationalize things in one way or another to support their own likes and dislikes. We all have preferences, and it's my view that the small group of folks that say "I like everything" just don't want confrontation or arguments. |
Surely you jest. Oh, I have preferences - so do we all. But the idea that there is any "right" answer or absolute "good" or "bad" judgement is very much open to argument. Anyway - I'll argue against it. 
Of course we all have preconceptions. I like what I like, and it covers a wide swath. But - that doesn't mean I believe that the things I don't like are necessarily garbage. I have sometimes initially thought something - music, writing, an idea - was junk, only to come to realize later on that I had really missed the point. Such experiences have left me wary of absolutist notions. Don't think that all people who try to maintain an open mind don't like to argue or dislike confrontation. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.
A friend and colleague once told me, after arguing him down on a mathematical point he was mistaken on, muttered "You'd argue the hind end off a donkey." That's true under certain conditions, but I try not to make it a contest. I don't mind a confrontation, but I do it for my own reasons - not necessarily because I want to "win" - whatever "winning" is anyway.
Some people discuss things when they want to find their version of "the truth". I and many others I know are very happy to be shown to be incorrect about something. Real understanding comes only from forming views, entering the fray, and letting the chips fall where they may. Anybody who is completely wedded to their own preconceptions is guaranteed to never learn anything except by random fluke.
All my opinions, of course. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 23 May 2008 3:38 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| I truly don't see how doing something for money necessarily makes it a contest. |
Not a contest, but surely you wouldn't object to calling it a "competition"? My own view is that everything is a competition. You might not feel that way, but that doesn't change the logic - only your view if it. Not including wanting to live and religion, there are three three major "driving forces" in our lives; money, sex, and power. Lots of others exist, but those are the ones that make the world go 'round. Those are where you'll find the fiercest competion, but it's in other fields, too. Competition is ubiquitous, it's everywhere. Not only do sentient creatures compete, but even microbes are fighting "contests", competitions that determine their very existence. Indeed, physicists will even argue that competition (for something) always goes on at the molecular and even at atomic levels!
You see? Because you won't call it a contest doesn't mean it's not a contest.
Anyhow, say you play for money. You're competing for resources, aren't you?. So, you play for pleasure? Well, something or somebody else vies for your attention. Maybe it's wifey or the kids, maybe it's only the television, seeking your attention for mindless advertisements. But that's still a contest, of sorts. It's not a game, or a challenge, it's become a way of life, a way that few of us can isolate ourselves from. Saying that "I choose not to compete" does not make the competition aspect itself go away. (Though ostriches do try that when they stick their heads in the sand. ) Saying "It's not really a contest" doesn't mean that it's not, in someone's own mind. Everyone and everything "competes".
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| Some people discuss things when they want to find their version of "the truth". |
Their version? Why does it have to be their version? Any version of the truth, if it is the real truth, should be valid.
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| I and many others I know are very happy to be shown to be incorrect about something. Real understanding comes only from forming views, entering the fray, and letting the chips fall where they may. |
Some people listen to rumors, and some look for facts. The truth seldom stares you in the face, it's often stealthy and reclusive. You have to seek it out, sometimes at great expense. The problem is that when people gather real facts, they're usually forced to draw conclusions from those facts. Those conclusions may be unpleasant, and so some people just avoid seeking or recognizing facts.
A common argument is "You can't compare apples and oranges". Of course you can! But you have to be willing to do the comparisons. If you're not, then you're losing out on knowledge. If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times..."You can't compare this music to that music, they're different styles". So what??? Sure, different styles, but you can still make a comparison - if you're willing. Was there ever a "contest" between Sinatra and the Beatles? Between Pat Boone and Elvis? probably neither one would have claimed there ever was.
But think about it, and I think you'll agree...
YES! THERE WAS A CONTEST!
And, you probably have a pretty good idea who the winners were, too.
Now, as far as posting the most steel guitar clips...who's winning? Is it David Hartley or Bobbe Seymour? |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 May 2008 7:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| My own view is that everything is a competition ... ... But think about it, and I think you'll agree ... YES! THERE WAS A CONTEST! |
The underline is mine. To me - there's only a contest if I decide there's a contest - or if I'm involved, if I decide to contest. In the examples you cite, there was no contest in my mind. You can say I'm putting my head in the sand, but I call it simple free will. There was probably a contest in the minds of the music biz execs trying to outsell one over the other. Or in the minds of some fans who insist that one is "great" and the other "sucks". But not to me, and I couldn't care less about what those people think about it.
Seriously - if someone comes up to you and slaps you in the face - do you really think you have to slap back? That's a choice. There may be good reasons to do it, but there may be other reasons not to. Not everything has to be a contest.
To have a real contest or competition, one must have a reasonable and consistent way to compare - to measure - things. Physically, philosophically, and logically, there is no absolute reference frame to observe events. In the physical world, this is the very point of Einstein's relativity theories. But even from a philosophical, logical, and/or mathematical point of view, one must start with some premises or axioms. Good luck trying to show "your" axioms are the "correct universal" axioms, applicable to everybody and everything. Gödel showed that even the most basic arithmetical system can't be shown to be both logically complete and consistent - in general terms, one can't have a logical system that covers everything and also has no logical contradictions - for example, a logical "proof" that proposition P is both true and not true. Good luck trying to show any system you devise is universally complete and consistent.
So, everybody measures from their own reference frame. You can choose to set any metrics you like and turn anything you want into a contest - in your own mind. But remember that anybody else is absolutely free to completely reject everything you measure and state, and neither of you can argue that you are "universally correct".
Personally, I find most competitive games pretty pointless, quite seriously. Unless I'm fighting for some type of survival, I'd rather not waste my time, and just go about my business. Others thrive on them. No problem, de gustibus non disputandum. But even then - for a contest to have meaning, the participants have to agree on a set of metrics. This is one of the reasons I often find them pointless - without agreement, why bother? But even further - unless there is some benefit to me, or someone or something I care about - why should I waste my time?
As, basically, an applied mathematician and scientist, I recoil in horror when I see people apply metrics from Euclidean geometry - applicable to physical things like non-relativistic position, distance, and velocity in physics - to fundamentally non-quantitative things like personal taste or opinion and ascribe "meaning" to them without the foggiest notion of what underlies what's happening. I see it all the time, but it doesn't change my basic revulsion.
| Quote: |
| Saying "It's not really a contest" doesn't mean that it's not, in someone's own mind. Everyone and everything "competes". |
Again, the underlines are mine. It seems to me that you agree that it has to do with what is in a person's mind.
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| Their version? Why does it have to be their version? Any version of the truth, if it is the real truth, should be valid. |
Again, you're arguing "absolute truth". The reason it has to be "their" version is that they're stuck with their own reference frame. Try as you may, you can't look at the physical world any other way. No matter how empathetic we are to another's point of view, we never can really look at anything truly from their eyes. Physically, we are each stuck in our own body.
Finally, Donny - in my own mind, this discussion is not a "contest" with you. I'm just expressing my views, and I fully respect yours. I think I even understand where you're coming from, even though I disagree with your main premise that everything is competitive.
Of course, everything I say here is from my personal frame of reference. |
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Leslie Ehrlich
From:
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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Posted 23 May 2008 11:33 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| My own view is that everything is a competition. You might not feel that way, but that doesn't change the logic - only your view if it. Not including wanting to live and religion, there are three three major "driving forces" in our lives; money, sex, and power. Lots of others exist, but those are the ones that make the world go 'round. |
IMHO, that's a pretty dim view of reality.  |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 24 May 2008 12:43 am
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Yeah---What happened to food, clothing, and shelter? On a cold winter's day, you wanna go outdoors for some sex, or you wanna stay warm inside the house?
Not a very smart statement.
If I'm playing for money, there's no competition involved. Somebody wanted to hire ME. And if I'm playing for fun, then something other than my guitar is not competing with it, it's distracting me. And I remove the distraction.
And Donny, there is "the truth." There is not "any version of the truth." And very seldom is "the truth" "stealthy and reclusive." That sentence looks good on paper, but is absolutely meaningless in a real world. And conclusions are based more on hypothesis, than on facts.
"Apples and oranges" is a phrase coined many years ago, to describe completely unrelated objects. A bridge can never be a helicopter, and vice versa. Hence the coining of the phrase. In some other countries, the phrase is "chalk and cheese," which may be more clear to you, Donny. |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 24 May 2008 11:06 am
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What Mr. Mudgett said about the contest being all in our heads struck a chord with me. I immediately thought of the very rich people (not all of them) who feel so superior because they feel that they have won some sort of contest. A contest in which so many of the rest of us, to the complete ignorance of the, "winners," are not taking part. I think any contest is all in our heads. We should just relax and have fun. 
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 26 May 2008 10:49 am
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Edward -
Dave's statement, and your acceptance of it, are on the money.
I've respectfully read and understood every post to this thread and, with all due respect, have come to the conclusion that all of this esoteric bullshit in attempting to define the undefineable is tantamount to shoveling shit against the tide. (Does "tone" come to mind?) There are too many variables associated with the topic which only lead to quite unnecessary brain overload. Yes, a contest is formulated in the mind and, too often, by overinflated egos direly in need of massaging with a few lofty accolades or, even, a smooch on the butt. Let those who would create contests for their own self-serving reasons indulge their inadequasies and insecurities but you mustn't, of necessity, be a party to it.
There's been a couple of Latin phrases used to support a thought or position. I can add one more which may help you to come to grips with this quandary: "Illegitimus non carborundum". It's pseudo Latin, to be sure, but loosely translated means "don't let the bastards grind ya down". Be true to your heartfelt feelings - relax and just have fun. Pay no attention to the ethereal crap which plays no part in the creation of pretty music.
Now - sit down at your steel and play the first thing which springs to mind - and perish any thought as to whether it was better or worse than the last time that you played it. 'Twas good for the soul, wasn't it? Play on - and be happy.
Respectfully,
Richard |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 May 2008 11:11 am
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A guitarist I know once stated that he participates in jams and open mic nights "to win" - so to him it's obviously a competition.
Personally I believe that those who have that kind of attitude never will realize the true task of a musician; To be a humble servant of the music in and around us.
The real competition, or battle, is between the music and the musicians ego, if the ego is too big and gets in the way of the music, the music loose.
Steinar
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Jussi Huhtakangas
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Posted 26 May 2008 12:45 pm
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| It's a competition to me; I strive to play better than I did yesterday. Sometimes I lose, but often I've won. |
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Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
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Posted 26 May 2008 1:58 pm
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Steinar has hit the nail on the head. The real purpose of competition is to improve oneself, not upstage others.
To compete for the simply for the sake of besting others is the essence of vanity.
_________________
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If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 May 2008 4:28 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| To me - there's only a contest if I decide there's a contest - or if I'm involved, if I decide to contest. In the examples you cite, there was no contest in my mind. You can say I'm putting my head in the sand, but I call it simple free will....think about it. |
Okay, I've thought. Now read on:
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Seriously - if someone comes up to you and slaps you in the face - do you really think you have to slap back? That's a choice. There may be good reasons to do it, but there may be other reasons not to. Not everything has to be a contest. |
This is an excellent example, most excellent indeed! I couldn't have come up with a better one. Now, open your mind, and look at it this way. The contest you're concentrating on is only one. Oh sure, it's the main one, but certainly not the only one. Okay, Bluto slaps you in the kisser. For whatever reason, you choose not to return that insult. Might I guess you've made up your mind not to drag yourself into a battle of fisticuffs. Fine. You've proven you have courage and a strong will. (Or you're a coward, but the result is the same - no fight.) Yes, it's not only a contest of brute force, but one of wills! You've made a conscious decision not to fight back. You have won the battle of wills, as big Bluto was just trying to get you to fight him. You "lost" the physical contest, but you also won the moral contest, that of not draging yourself down to his level.
You see, Dave, contests are everywhere. Oddly enough, we don't have to respond in like manner to be a participant. Contests are won and lost every day by people choosing to be a part of the action, and contests are similarly won or lost by people choosing not to be a party in the action. A true Christian may choose never to fight a physical battle, but there is always that battle between good and evil going on for him. His morals, and his determination to uphold his religious principles, keep him from fighting other men. By choosing not to "play" in that contest, he has won another! He has won out over temptation. Well, was that not a contest of sorts? Has he not "won" the battle between he and the Devil? When a person prays for healing and gets better, has he not won a victory over that affliction that beleaguered him? When a person chooses not to play the "volume game" on the bandstand, or play the "speed game", he has refused one contest, and entered another. He shows he is not affected by what goes around him. He shows he can play with class and taste, as opposed to playing just loud and fast. Indeed, in his mind, he has won a contest of sorts.
Of course, there are always some who think contests are always "scored" events; three strikes, ten rounds, eighteen holes, or five-hundred laps. But contests, of one form or another, go on all the time, in every facet of our lives. They're not necessarily good or bad, they're just "there", for all who wish to see them.
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| But remember that anybody else is absolutely free to completely reject everything you measure and state, and neither of you can argue that you are "universally correct". |
Oh, we can argue the fact. Proving it, though, and changing someone else's mind is another thing, entirely!
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| Everyone and everything "competes"...It seems to me that you agree that it has to do with what is in a person's mind. |
In this example, yes. But as I've said, I don't feel competitions and contests are just limited to people. I, and many others, observe many events which may be classified as "contests".
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| Finally, Donny - in my own mind, this discussion is not a "contest" with you. I'm just expressing my views, and I fully respect yours. I think I even understand where you're coming from, even though I disagree with your main premise that everything is competitive. |
Disagreement is allowed. It won't however, move me from the position that I may see (and often, enjoy) competition where others do not. (I also often see and enjoy beauty where others do not. Is that a blessing, or a curse?) |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 May 2008 5:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| Indeed, in his mind, he has won a contest of sorts. |
Again - you seem to agree with me that the contest is in someone's head. Obviously, your head is in a different place than mine - that's totally fine. But I still don't understand why you can't see that some people just don't operate this way. Please - feel free. I just don't understand.
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| Disagreement is allowed. It won't however, move me from the position that I may see (and often, enjoy) competition where others do not. |
Absolutely. I'm not trying to move anybody. I'm simply stating what I see.
Although I probably feel much like Steinar does, I'm not completely with him. I think it's legitimate to have a contest if one decides to. Sometimes a contest is "fun" and seems to be useful to me, and other times it just seems to be a drag, pointless, and even counterproductive. An example of a useful contest - to me - would be a training exercise where competition is used to pump up one's motivation and physical and mental acuity. Obviously, in a serious zero-sum game with some type of survival at stake, I'm likely to compete very hard. But as I alluded to above - not all games are zero-sum - prisoner's dillemma, anybody?
I don't expect anybody to agree with me. Actually, it would be kind of a pointless discussion if everyone did. If you look at our society, it's pretty bloody obvious that a lot of people don't. But that doesn't sway me a bit. |
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