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Topic: Help! E tuning problem |
Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 11 May 2008 4:50 am |
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Last night while tuning the guitar I was having quite a time getting the 8 string tuned. No matter what I did I couldn't get the open, raise, or lower all tuned at the same time. I could get any combination of 2 but not all three. Most of the time it was getting the raise right. It's close but not close enough. The tuner for the e raise seems tight while the tuner for the lower is very easy to turn. Do these things get so out of sink (meaning the combo of the 2 end tuners w/ the key head) that it needs to all come back to a o starting point? Never been an issue before. I tried every thing I could think of. I just lubed everything I could find to lube. It seems that the raise tuner being tight should get backed off quite a bit then tighten the lower so that they may be of equal lengths and start from there. Remember to explain any fixes to me as if I were a 4 year old. Thanks, Greg Thomas d10
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 11 May 2008 6:21 am
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Disclaimer: I know nothing about Thomas guitars. Here are some basic pointers that apply to most all-pull steels.
Here are two things---they are the most common suggestions for your (common) situation.
Item #1
---first of all, by 'loose' nylon tuners, do you mean that they turn easily or that they have a lot of slack, at rest?
If the lower nylon nut turns easily then it might be too loose and it might be slipping. These nuts should not be finger-loose. If you can turn it with your bare fingers then it is too loose and should be replaced with a fresh nut (or in a pinch you can wrap the threaded rod with plumbers teflon tape---so I've heard....never tried it yet.)
If you mean 'slack', then
Item #2
----there MUST be slack between the nylon nut and the the changer when the guitar is at rest. If the mechanism, at rest, remains engaged, hanging on the pull rod and its nylon nut, then all bets are off and you will be chasing your tail trying to get the strings, open, raised, and lowered to consistently be in tune.
The changer, at rest, must be sitting at its physical stop. If not, unscrew the nylon tuner until there is slack between it and the part of the changer where the rod goes thru the hole at the endplate. If you now cannot get the string to raise (or lower) the full amount you need, you must increase the amount of movement of the pull rod either by:
---changing the hole the rod is going thru at the endplate (hole closest to the top deck of the guitar yields more changer/string movement)
---------------and/or---------------
---changing the hole or slot of the bellcrank (rod puller) that the rod is hooked up to (hole/slot farther away from the top deck yields greater changer/string movement)
---------------and/or---------------
---increasing the amount of travel of the actual pedal or lever by changing its mechanical start or stop hardware.
These are some of the basics of all-pull mechanisms. Once you absorb and understand them you will be able you to track down many tuning and playability issues and set up a guitar to suit your preferences.
Hope this helps. Looking forward to your follow-up. |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 12 May 2008 8:59 am
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Well; thanks for your reply Jon. I guess your the only one that cared to comment on this issue. I started the process by making sure that the nylon tuners were not sloppy at the changer. I adjusted both nylon tuners for the knees just snug against the changer and restarted my tuning process and what ever I did seemed to fix the problem. It would seem to me that over a period of time; little tuning tweek's here and there will eventually get everything out of whack and it all must come back to zero at some point to start over. Thanks for your help Jon. Greg
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 12 May 2008 5:51 pm
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Greg, I think no one else replied because Jon was right on the money with his advice. It's not that we don't care about your problems.  |
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Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 12 May 2008 6:03 pm
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Yea, to many cooks spoil the broth!!!
He gave you 100% correct info and it seems to have worked out for ya!!!!!
JE:-)> |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 13 May 2008 4:20 am
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Your right guys. It was that shinny "Knob Guard" shinning into my eyes, giving me a headache, making me grouchy & whinny....... 
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Jimmy Walls
From:
Phoenix , Arizona
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Posted 13 May 2008 5:27 am
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Greg, Here's my 2 cents worth. Note when you are changing a string that it's the same gauge, wound or plain. Sets can vary in sizes.....The 6th string 22wound caught me off guard. Rushing to be able to kick off the next song, I grabbed a 20plain string from my stash. Going down in guage the nut adjustment and rod pull was not enough thus leaving the string flat of an "A" note when pressing the pedal. During break, I changed the rod position on bell crank and was able to dail it in however it was too much pull when I went back to the 22w. Things like this really only happen to me so don't worry about this happening to you. Jim
_________________
Mullen SD-10 3x5 Peavey-1000, Vegas 400, Nashville 112, DD3, Keith Hilton Digital Sustain |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 13 May 2008 6:06 am
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Thanks Jimmy. That reminds me. I just changed the 6 a couple of days ago. When I did; I put a wound string on it and it sounded like some kind of alien space ship reverberating. I had my wife stop at the music store to get me a plain. I had to go up one size because they did not have the right one. I have a Carter Starter that takes the wound 6 th. The Thomas takes a plain. What constitutes the 6 string being wound or plain in the sound. Are the pickups made taking the strings into consideration or vice versa? I do know there was no substitution in my case.
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Jimmy Walls
From:
Phoenix , Arizona
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Posted 14 May 2008 8:47 am
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| Quote: |
| What constitutes the 6 string being wound or plain in the sound. Are the pickups made taking the strings into consideration or vice versa? I do know there was no substitution in my case. |
Greg,
As far as the pick design with strings in mind ...that's a question for the manufacturer. They would be happy to tell you about things like that.
As for the strings, they can be reached too however;
IMHO there are 4 steps from a fuller soft tone towards a thinner sharper "brillant" tone. ie 1 nickel wound, 2 n/plain, 3 stainless wound, 4 s/plain. If the 10th string is a .38 in the set, a wound 6th string seems to make a more equal step transition in sound than having a plain. A smaller gauge on the 6th makes the steps even when the 10th is a .36 Check out the difference between the E-9 set gauges at the strings Link at the top of the page.
Disclaimer: tone can be altered by amps, guitar make, EQ, effects, (I would hate to play without my" Keith Hilton Digital Sustain"), volume pedal, type of pickup, the attack, types and thickness of picks on the hands....OH THE HANDS. Use the search to find lenghty threads on all these variations which you can ponder on. "It's not to reach a destination but enjoying the journey". Someone, Sometime, Somewhere.
Just play the thing, listen to the pro's perform, play, learn, play, glean, play, discover and did I mention play.
And there you go....
Jim
_________________
Mullen SD-10 3x5 Peavey-1000, Vegas 400, Nashville 112, DD3, Keith Hilton Digital Sustain |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 14 May 2008 12:06 pm
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Thanks Jimmy. But my question still remains. Why did the wound 6 th string sound....well it was unplayable sounding....alien but the plain 6 th sounds as per normal. My Carter Starter calls for a wound 6 th and it sounds normal. The LDG Jag strings have a 6 th w in it. Why do some guitars sound right with a 6 th wound and some absolutely not be able to use the wound as in my case w/ the starter wound not sounding right in place of the plain on the Thomas? Hmmmmmm?????? 
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 17 May 2008 12:12 pm
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Hi Greg,
I'd almost be willing to bet that in bringing that sixth string up to pitch, (if you were using a meter, depending on the brand) you had it actually tuned to a (one octave lower) C#, rather than a G# (up an octave).
The reason I'm suggesting that, is because I knew of that happening a few times. Since G# is the perfect 5th, of C#, some meters, (depending on the meter) will pick up that lower octave C# and call it a G#. |
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Greg Wisecup
From:
Troy, Ohio
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Posted 18 May 2008 6:08 am
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You may be right Don. I may go back some day and see if that's it. It sure was strange. I wish some one could tell me why some guitars take a wound 6 th and some take a plain 6 th. Thanks, Greg
_________________
Derby SD-10 4&5 Black!(duh)/
Derby D-10/Steelers Choice/
Goodrich 120/ 2- Katana Boss 100's
/Nashville 400
RV-3/ Zoom MS-50G
As long as I'm down in the mix I'm Fantastic! |
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John Coffman
From:
Wharton,Texas USA
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Posted 18 May 2008 6:41 am
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Greg, Over time the nylon tuners become hard and need to be replaced. They may seem ok but slip. As for the 6th string not sure but it very well could be your tuning. It take awhile to really learn how to tune a steel then tune it to your ears. I spent 3 hours with a teacher going over every string and examples of each situation. It sure made a big difference in my tuning time and my overall tone. IMHO if the guitar is not properly tuned if will lead you down a path that is hard to fix. To me a beginner such as I must make double sure we are in tune so we can work on our ear training as we master the chord positions on the fret board. Playing in tune is hard enough for a beginner. Take the time and make sure this is correct. Lesson learned by me.
Best of luck. Give a me call or drop a email with your # and go over this.
_________________
ShowPro SD10, Mullens RP, Bose S1 Pro, GK MB200, MB500, Bugera T50 Tube amp with SlidgeRig, TC HOF reverb effect. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 18 May 2008 7:16 am
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Hi Greg, Ok, it's not that SOME guitars take a WOUND 6th string and some DON'T.
It's more of what the builder (INITALLY) set the guitar up to use. And, beings the guitar was set up that way, in order to keep from having to make any major changes to the undercarriage adjustments, etc., (especially since they know that the majority of buyers would be new players, unfamiliar with doing setup changes) they recommend staying with how the guitar was set up, when it left the factory.
We've probably all used both (wound and plain) in deciding what we liked best, and then stuck with what sounded the best, in our judgement.
(For my taste, it's a plain .020 6th G#) Others like a wound. (it's personal choice)
I hope that answers your question, or at least helps in answering it.
It's also important that you stick to using the exact string gauges, (sizes in thousands, as in: .009, .010, .011, etc.) in order to avoid the setup problems, that I stated, in answering your question. (It applies to your other strings too and not simply the 6th string).
Don |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 24 May 2008 11:59 pm
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There's a world of difference between plain and wound!!! Various manufacturers use different diameter core wire sizes on wound strings. There is no wrong or right here, only the differences. When changing one gage for another or switching brands, or going from plain to wound, all that must be taken into account. Once you settle in on one brand and one diameter, and wound or plain, don't change if the results are satisfactory. There is a vast difference in the amount of pull required for each of these.
PRR |
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