Help! I need some info on this MSA pedal steel

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

I got this from a friend to help him pay some bills.
Im clueless as to what its worth. or model it is. I did give him a good bit of money for it.He said he custom ordered it, and was quite expensive. It has 7 pedals and 3 knee levers+ 1 other push pull type lever underneath.
Any info will be greatly appreciated.
Here are pics.
Thanks.
Orlando

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Well, it is an MSA 12 string,7x4 (maybe 5 knees, can't tell), Universal. Probably a Vintage XL, with that lacquer finish. I can't see any logo on the front panel, so it's probably been refinished. Nice gold keys, too.

Looks like Sho-Bud barrel tuners under there?? Interesting.

I can tell you it's a real work horse and will last many years. Very reliable, and easily changed, mechanics. I love these MSA Universals.

Maurice Anderson would probably be able to tell you it's age and original setup if you give him the serial number. Just drop him an email.
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Best regards,
Mike

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

The serial is 1c5956. Its a 4 lever. The finish looks original, but I could be wrong.
What do you think one is worth. you can Pm me if you dont want to say it here.
I really appreciate the help.
Orlando

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Orlando, I'm not the best person to suggest what the fair market value might be. But, from my little corner of the world, I'd guess it's sale price could be around $1600 to $2000. But, without seeing it in person, there's no way to be precise.

I'm basing that on the photos...and it looks to be in fine condition, and pretty clean underneath. Also, at that price I would expect that there would be very minimal wear in the changer and bellcranks.

But, I will defer to many others on the Forum who are more in tune with current market prices.

Come on guys and gals, let's hear some more opinions.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

Mike
I apreciate the input and help.
Im most likely going to sell it, thats why I need the help.Im going loose a little on it as I gave him more for it that it was worth.Its a clean one though.
No issues at all.
Thanks.
Orlando

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

I would be a little wary of this one...
Someone with extreme tinkering abilities has altered this guitar albeit good or bad.
The use of the Sho-Bud barrel tuners may have been added to overcome the lack of knowledge of setting up the pulls correctly.
The nylon hex tuners are extending out and shouldn't be sitting in the case as pictured. There could be a funky reason for that.
The gold tuners could be cheapies available off ebay.
The pull rods may be aluminum available from hobby shops, and a couple could be original rods..hard to tell by the pictures. The one that appears to be gold in color is more what an older steel rod might look like, however all the cross rods look clean...
The one fat lever looks like a vertical.
In any case, I would proceed with caution, get a good knowledgeable player's assessment (in person), and offer no more than you care to lose on the deal.
Regardless of the resale value (which I think was proposed to be much higher than it's actually worth) there's the possibility that it might be a fine playing guitar.
Could be a pain to resale, if that's all you intend on doing.
JMHO Smile

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Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

The "Fat" knee lever is a standard MSA vertical KL from the time period when these were built. Verticals were just beginning to be widely used. The Sho-Bud barrel tuners were probably used to tune the third raise on a string. These changers were only double raise/lower, and most universal tunings need three raises on a couple of strings. There have been several methods of doing the third raise, this was one of them.

This is a pretty nice looking guitar, it should sell for around $1600 to $1800 in my opinion.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I'll take exception to that price. #1) This guitar needs to be gone through by an MSA mechanic. $250-$300. #2) It does not have triple capability which is standard for today's universal. I would be wary also. $800-$1000 at most.

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

Darvin,

Have you really ever seen that many third raises?

If so, show me......

I'll be waiting to see if you purchase this one for $1600-1800.

Laughing

_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

The tuners are grovers. As I understood it. The guitar was set up for the needs of the particular owner. Its not a butchered piced together instrument.
It was owned/played by a killer steel player.I really do appreciate all the comments, good, bad or
indifferent.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Like Kevin says, the guitar really needs to be checked out. It's a later model (probably 1978), so it should be a triple raise changer. The fretboard isn't an MSA, and it looks "off" in those pictures for some reason. (That's easy to check though, the 12th fret should at be the exact center of the strings. If it's not, that's a problem.) I can't explain the barrel tuners (there's a bunch of 'em, more than is usually necessary), and it may indeed have been refinished.

At any rate, I'd put the value at $1500-$1700. That allows a few hundred for it to be checked over and adjusted/setup thoroughly, and still be in the ball park for what it is.

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

Well here's a few more tid-bits, all completely indifferent;

I can't see anything on this MSA that would be considered a "custom order", unless one would have ordered one less knee lever that typically was included in a stock guitar of this type ((LKR).

Grover tuners say "Grover" on them.......

Regardless what you personally may believe, to the thousands that own a factory, stock MSA guitars of similar models, this indeed a highly "altered" guitar at very best. The MSA emblem's been removed, the rodding is very "unique" the plastic tuners are not suppose to stick out of the end, it's shy a factory knee lever, the fretboard doesn't appear to be stock, the gold "Grovers" replaced the originals, I don't see any hint of a model that is typically on an MSA of this type (Super Sustain, Classic, etc.) And, it's missing the volume and tone controls that typically come installed from MSA.

I'd be willing to bet that Maurice Anderson can verify that none of the above were special ordered, at least not from MSA. Put the serial number up with a post directed to him and ask him...he's helped many of us identify the year and configuration.

The real obvious question is; why can't your friend answer the questions you have about the history and particulars of this guitar?

I'm not saying the guitar doesn't play well, or sound fantastic (the pickup looks nice), just that a typical buyer on this forum might question some of the "alterations", and not be as comfortable paying $1600-1800 for a very unusually modified MSA.

If it were me, I might consider asking for the type of help that you're now requesting BEFORE shelling out "more than it was worth".

Of course I'm not one of them, but some people pay good money for a 30 year old Chevy with a Dodge slant-six, Ford posi-traction rear end, Hurst speed shifter, and a Plymouth grill.

Of course , I could be completely off-base here...... Whoa!

... If so, I apologize in advance.

The value/worth is exactly what someone is willing to pay you for it...go for it!
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

Sounds like Steve knows all there is to know about this guitar, I guess there's no need any of the rest of us offering an opinion.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Steve English · From: Baja, Arizona

Very Christian of you Darvin....

This IS a forum.

Put your money where your mouth is.
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

I did check the fingerboard as suggested. Its dead center when meassured nut to bridge. I have no doubt its customized at this point, but it seems to operate as it should, and is a looker.
I think all you guys are very generous with your time and info,and im sure without it being in front of you, its hard to say whats what. The pics are good, but arent as detailed as possible.
Be kind to one another, this is not a life or death
situation.
As to why the friend cant answer the questions, well aperently what he told me and what im finding out, does not jive. Lets just say we need to have a pow wow.

Antolina · From: Dunkirk NY

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

I dont know if Im a man of character or a soft hearted fool, but I thank you for the kind words, and advice.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

we need to see a picture of the endplate. Without that, we really can't tell whether it is the double raise/lower "classic" or the triple raise/lower "The Universal" or "Vintage XL," but the Sho Bud tuning collars indicate that it's a classic.

But it's definitely a maple body from the late 70s or perhaps early 80s, and with a proper set up, would be a terrific guitar.

Tom Bradshaw has invented a devise that, when inserted into the changer on a double raise MSA, converts one of the lowers to a raise, or visa versa. I have these conversions devises on both my 2 older guitars, and they work just fine. Far better than the Sho Bud collars in fact.

If I wanted another steel, (which I don't,) I'd definitely consider this one. I'd take it to a pro like Tom or Jim Palenscar and have the undercarriage rebuilt and Tom's devised installed, as well as the extra levers I use.

Those old maple body MSAs are great guitars. This one may need some TLC, but it's definitely worth restoring.
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Jimmie Martin · From: Ohio, USA

Is that a msa fretboard?

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Orlando asked me to post this for him.

This double raise changer means the guitar is a Classic from 1977 or 78, the same model as is shown in my avatar.

As I said in my previous post, with another knee lever and Tom Bradshaw's triple raise inserts, this will be a terrific guitar. All it needs is some TLC.

Orlando, you might not have gotten a great bargain, but you definitely got a great instrument, and one that will last you the rest of your life.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

Steve, my comment had nothing to do with Christianity, I merely called it as I saw it. If I remember right, Christ was pretty outspoken also, and was crucified for it.

I'm done.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Jimmie, no that's not an MSA fretboard.

My opinion is that it was refinished, and the machanics reworked with available parts.

For the right price, I wouldn't mind buying, or trading for, it to do a total refurb, and return it to it's former glory. Of course, decals and fretboards for the older MSAs are almost impossible to find today.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

to kevin and mike...i don't get you guys... (msa mechanic..return to former glory..)
why not just play the sucker..looks like a solid guitar with potential...why plan on wasting unneeded money when it's potentially a good tool as it stands.

edit to say i think it looks really sharp and sexy the way it sits..unique and cool..black and gold!

Orlando Colom · From: Florida, USA

Ill take a beating at this price, but if anyone wants it for 1600+ shipping, they can buy it.Its a great steel and will probably outlast anyone of us.
Not to mention, it looks beautiful in Black/Gold.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

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