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Topic: Help needed with broken National New Yorker |
Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 1:05 am |
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Today a beautiful 1937 National New Yorker arrived - apart from some worn off paint it is in great cosmetical condition. The chickenhead knob (pickup selector switch) was missing, and the replacment I had bought (thanks to good advice here at the SGF) fitted perfectly! 
Then I plugged it in.
The seller had written "all works" in the description. In fact, the only sound coming out of this New Yorker is some scratching noise when I turn the volume knob.
The three-way pickup selector switch - about which I had specificly asked "does it work in all three positions?" and received the answer "yes it seems to be working" - is stuck, it does not move!
The lap steel was packed very well, and there is no damage to the shipping box (not that I can imagine shipping damage causing these faults anyway).
So, what do I do? It is a beautiful guitar, and I would rather fix it than return it, but the seller has obviously not bothered to check this guitar properly and sold it with misleading and incorrect information. This is the three pickup version of the New Yorker, so the electronics are somewhat unorthodox, and I don't even know if it is fixable.
I have also incurred import tax/duty on this lap steel.
Any advice on how to proceed would be much appreciated. How big a partial refund would be fair to ask for if I opt not to return it? I have already written to the seller explaining the problem and am expecting an answer to see what they have to say for themselves.
Any advice how to loosen than stuck pickup selector switch?
Many thanks in advance!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 3:11 am
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Sorry to hear about your problem Fred...
I guess that fixing it & asking for a partial refund to cover the cost of the parts & hassle would be better than going through the rigmarole of returning it & trying to reclaim the import tax etc... (as it's otherwise a desirable guitar )
Do you have a multimeter to check which components are dodgey? See if you get a good reading from the pups.
Maybe the wiring, switch and/or pots are shot rather than the pickups themselves.
It should be fixable... the selector switch may need replacing, if it's stuck then perhaps an internal component has broken. You should be able to find a rotary switch that will fit right & do the job.
See what response you get from the seller first before deciding how to proceed.
Good luck with this, I hope you get a good outcome! |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 3:41 am
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Thanks Chris for your input! Yes, I do have a multimeter (part of a £10 soldering kit I bought from Argos  ) - just have to figure out how to use it. I guess I will open it up, take a photo and ask for help here, and proceed with caution.
I agree that a partial refund and fixing this lap steel would be preferable - it is a lovely guitar and getting all the import duty etc. back will probably be a major headache. I will see what the seller has to say.
Regarding the pickup selector switch, this could be a problem, as it is a very odd one. I have an identical 1937 New Yorker (serial number C 92x - this one is C 16x ) and when some contact cleaner was needed in the three-way switch on that one, I realised it is a "mechanical" switch that engages/connects with different configurations of "metal tongues" for each of the three pickup configurations.
As long as I receive a substantial partial refund, I would be cool with trying to fix this, as it would be a nice challenge and I would learn from it, but I will see what the seller's position is before I open the lap steel up or tamper with anything.
Cheers,
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 4:20 am
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I'm not sure what a guitar-tech would charge for this kind of job, maybe get a quote over the phone & go from there...
Do you know of someone local to you?
( Some "guitar-techs" may not have ever seen anything like a New-Yorker before! )
As far as the refund goes, I'd suggest that the seller is basically buying a lack of negative feedback from you, as well as covering the actual cost of bringing the guitar up to "as described" condition.
If you can take the reading ( in ohms ) from each of the pickups, I think other more knowledgeable folks on this forum would have an idea of what numbers to expect from your multimeter.
If the pups are ok I'd go for a basic "rewire job" & try to find a 3-way rotary switch to fit if you can't get the original working.
Maybe try someone who specialises in vintage amp repairs, they may be a better bet than a regular guitar-tech.
Maybe a switch like this might work... |
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 5:33 am
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Fred,
You can probably free up the stuck shaft with some
penetrating oil, followed by lubrication with a light weight machine oil.
Put a couple of drops on the shaft and let it soak in for a few hours, then try to turn the shaft.
Be careful not to scar the shaft as it is likely to be brass or aluminum but could be cadmium plated steel.
Some gentle working back and forth should free it up.
Then give it a drop or two of the machine oil.
I've freed many a stuck switch shaft this way.
Blake |
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William Clark
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 5:55 am
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Hello Fred:
I would probably start out by spraying the switch with contact cleaner with lubricant in it and letting it soak overnight. If that doesn't free it up, you could always try unsoldering the rotary switch and take it apart to see what is going on in side. The cover should have three metal fingers that would have to be bent up to remove the cover. Do this carefully as to not break the metal. Good Luck!!
Bill |
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 6:07 am
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If the switch is the same as the one pictured in your IGS forum thread ( ie: open leaf switch ) then yeah, try soaking it in a penetrating lube & then cleaning the rust off the contacts/mechanism with a dremel & one of those wire-brush bits ( use eye protection though  , the wires break & fly off <picture this smiley with the mouth the other way up!)
Replacing it with a new one seems like an easier option though. |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Blake Hawkins
From:
Florida
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 9:58 am
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Fred, Some additional comments on cleaning the switch contacts.
In that type of switch the contacts are likely to be "German Silver" or they could be brass.
In either event you can clean them using a "relay burnishing tool" which is a small very fine file used to polish contacts on electrical relays.
Lacking that, use a strip of good quality bond paper.
put some cleaning fluid on it, and insert it between the contacts. Close the contacts and slowly draw it through. Do this several times and it should clean the crud off.
You could also use a business card.
In my previous comments , I do not use spray products for this type of switch. I use oil from a can and apply it with a tooth pick to get one of two drops exactly where I want them.
Blake |
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William Fraser
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 10:48 am National
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It may be necessary to dis-connect a wire to open up the ckt ,then you can meter the p/up. I don't know what it should read ,but the capacitor is a part that can go bad ,they dry out , pickups dont just die ,you usually need a human to damage one , clean the pots , & get a friend who can read a meter I,m betting on the switch. De-solder & eliminate it ,to test.Usually a newer cap can be used for testing.If I knew what the p/up should read I could explain how to use the meter. Bill
_________________
Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc. |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 10:58 am
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Given your situation, import fees, still wanting the instrument,etc., you are fortunate that the seller is offering you anything. It sounds like an eBay deal, so the seller is looking for good feedback.
I don't know what you paid, but I'd assume a refund of $100 is in the fair ballpark.
Another approach is to ask yourself, "What is the maximum amount I would have paid for this instrument, knowing what I know now?" Then ask for the difference, or a return/refund.
However, it sounds like you really want to keep it.
I would. |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 11:06 am
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Thanks everyone for the continued support!
Just to clarify, the pics above are NOT my lap steel, but photos of an identical one. I have now opened this New Yorker up, and it looks pretty untampered with:
Here are two close-ups of the pickup selector switch and the bridge pickup:
And these are the "hidden" pickups under the fretboard:
I have sprayed some contact cleaner on in the switch (and some on the volume pot as it scratches a bit when turned - the only electric sound from this lap steel at present). I will leave it for some time and see what happens.
Regadarding checking the pickups - could someone please be so kind to explain to me how that is done, and how I should "set up" the multimeter? 
(I have a post about this over at the IGS forum as well - http://www.guitarseminars.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/020731.html - so please check there if someone has answered this before typing any lengthy reply! I am very grateful for all the assistance and don't want to waste anyone's time!)
Thanks!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 11:24 am
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| Before you decide what to ask for the refund find out if the pickup is the issue. If it is, half the price is not a bad refund for the hassle you'll go to. If not, I'd start at 25% of what you paid and work it out from there. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 2:04 pm
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"The three-way pickup selector switch - about which I had specificly asked "does it work in all three positions?" and received the answer "yes it seems to be working" - is stuck, it does not move!"
Fred, this might be the whole problem. You need to get that shaft turning before you start rippin' things apart. Stateside, we have "Hamfests" where enthusiasts sell all types of gear. If your switch is not repairable, you'll need to replace it. But these old switches are very simple and very durable. Me? I'd get some cleaner/lube into the shaft and start workin' it. If required, clean the contact points as mentioned above. But it's not like the very similar points in an older auto ignition. There's vitually no voltage to speak of that might cause pitting. I'm bettin' it's the locked up shaft that's the problem. Good luck, cuz the guitar's a beauty! |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 2:21 pm
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I agree about freeing up the shaft before doing anything else. When the shaft is turnable, the contacts may work fine. Like mentioned above, passing some paper thru the contacts is the way to clean them. I would not recommend any filing. Like said above, there is no current affecting the contacts, like pitting etc. so just a cleaning with paper should be fine. I would think the frozen shaft is the only fault to deal with.
Those type switches are very simple, and crud is the only enemy  |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 5:24 pm
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| basilh wrote: |
Fred, send it to me I'll sort it out "Gratis"
Baz |
Take him up on it, Fred. Basil is an electrical wizard, and I would trust any instrument in his hands. |
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 21 Apr 2008 11:03 pm
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| Basil is obviously much more than an electrical wizard... the man's a SAINT! |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 22 Apr 2008 1:09 am
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Thanks everyone for the good advice!
| basilh wrote: |
Fred, send it to me I'll sort it out "Gratis"
Baz |
Wow Basil - thanks a million for the super kind offer!!!
I will (carefully) try to get that switch moving and if I have made no progress in the next few days I will for sure take you up on it!
Thanks so much!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 22 Apr 2008 4:27 pm
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An update: WE'VE GOT SOUND!
The pickup selector switch is now moving a fraction each way, and when turing it clockwise I can dial in one position where the "hidden" pickups are engaged, and sounding sweet! So I think all the pickups are fine (seem to remember getting some response from the bridge blade pickup too when tapping it at some point) - like has been pointed out above, it seems the frozen shaft of the selector switch is the only problem.
So, I will leave the switch with some oil for longer and try to be patient.
I can't rule out taking you up on your great offer yet Basil - I'll see how this progresses.
Thanks again everyone!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Harry Sheppard
From:
Kalispell, MT USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2008 5:20 pm
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Fred,
My 7 string 1938 New Yorker had the exact same problem. The 3 way rotary switch did not move at all. Just spray som WD-40 inside the switch, let is soak a while and start moving it back and forth. I was able to lift the top enough to get access to the main part of the switch. I did this years ago and it caused no ill effects and still turns as smooth as the day it was made. Contact cleaner with lube should clear up the scratchy pot. You will have to pull the bridge pickup out of the body a ways to get to that (2 screws). Good luck.
Harry |
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William Clark
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Posted 22 Apr 2008 8:28 pm
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Fred: When you get this steel working be sure to record something and post it. I always enjoy the stuff you put on youtube. Incidentally, I was going to bid on this guitar but I bought the 1936 Hawaiian Model that is pictured on another post. You got a great deal!
Bill |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 24 Apr 2008 12:38 am
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Good news - the volume pot is now scratch free and the rotary switch is turning freely all the way! Two of the tone settings are working fully but "Harp" (my favourite of the three) is still not connecting properly, but I hope I will manage to sort this out within the next few days.
Would contact cleaner be the thing to use on the "metal tongues", or another spot of penetrating oil?
Bill - yes I think I saw yours on eBay too - it was a "best offer" auction, wasn't it? A very nice guitar!
Thanks!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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