Power Problem In Club?

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

I play a Sun. afternoon gig with a Classic Country/Western Swing band.The club that we play at is a brand new place ...just beautiful.Yesterday about 40 minutes into our set our Bass player's amp smoked,It's a Gallien Krueger,He then plugged into a second amp head that belongs to the other band that plays there during the week,and that fried also in a matter of seconds,Before he turned the second amp on it's heat sinks were really hot,and they amp wasn't even turned on? .It seems like the Bass amp was plugged into an extension cord that was about 100 feet long and was taped to the wall and went around the room to a different power source than the one that my Steel amp was plugged into.What I want to know is Could the long cord make two amps fry like that,Or is there something else like the electrician who wired the place?be at fault,This stuff is way over my head.Thanks ,Stu Whoa!

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

It's impossible to say. While a 100' extension cord isn't something I'd recommend, there's nothing wrong with it if it's a heavy enough cord. (A 100' cord used for an amp should be at least 14 ga., and 12 ga. is preferable.) If he fried both amps with the same speaker cabinet, there's a good chance the speaker cabinet or the connecting cords were responsible.

After frying two amps, you really need someone who has a little electrical knowledge to investigate. Needless to say, an amp that's not turned on should be room temperature...unless it's sitting next to the woodstove. Wink

Dennis Graves · From: Maryville, Tennessee

Stu,

I can say one thing for sure. With electrical tools, it is better to use the lowest gauge wire possible. The farther you are, the lower the gauge needs to be. We even use a 10 gauage sometimes, but a 12 gauge at 100 ft. should be sufficient. I've seen tools burn up in no time flat with a cheap extension cord.

Dennis

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Stu, you never know what you're gonna find. I've seen the hot and neutral wires reversed so many times that I'm surprised there were no bodies! I played a club out in the sticks as a house band. My '56 Pro sounded terrible! Measured the voltage the next night. 87 VAC!

Bob Bowden · From: Vancouver, BC, Canada * R.I.P.

Played a bar one time with really bad wiring that suffered from voltage spikes on a constant basis. With today's equipment, thats the last thing a player needs. Everytime a spike came down the line, it changed the programming on my drum machine, kick drum was suddenly a cowbell, etc). The other guitar player was trying out a Fender CyberDeluxe. That amp's settings also had problems with the voltage spikes. Nothing more fun that watching him start a ballad and his amp suddenly starts sounding like Fender's version of a Marshall stack.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Thanks a bunch everyone,Hopefully the club owner is going to get an electrician in there in the next couple of days to check it out.Stu Surprised

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

John and Bob, those are precisely the reasons I have been using a Tripp-Lite Line Voltage Stabilizer/ Isolation Transformer for the last 20 years or so. No more voltage problems and synths shutting down and re-booting.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Richard, I use a Furman Balanced Isolation Transformer.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Smart move John.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Yeah Richard. The only that that complicates it is the necessity for two distinct 120 VAC lines.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I'd say they had wired hot to ground or neutral,
then ran it around the room 100 feet.

It was CLEARLY and idiot electrician move.
And the club/electrician owes BOTH bass players
the cost of repairs.

They are DAMNED luck no one DIED... IMHO

The most dangerous clubs are the BRAND NEW ones,
the wiring is not 100% tried and true.

We plugged in a borrow pa amp into a VERY upscale
and classy LOOKING private housing
development's lakeside clubhouse IN Bangkok... sizzzle!!!

We are talking Fortune 500 company houses etc.
Not just well to do residents, but LOADED to do.

Brand new freshly installed stage,
we were told afterwards
wired in a moment of distraction....obviously
Fried a $3000 power amp/cross-over combo in a few seconds.

May have been looking perfect at the plug,
but wrong at the breaker box or at some
twist connecter filled box enroute.

An old club with 80 year old wiring
ain't the safest, but you at least know it
has been working for 80 years.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

David, I agree! Again, I'll say that I can't tell you how many times I've seen hot and neutral wires reversed! I was workin' in a sheet metal shop, and guys were complaining that they were getting shocked when they set their grinders down on their welding tables. Almost every outlet had been wired wrong! By an electrician! Thank God no one was hurt! I gotta raise!

Don Poland · From: Hanover, PA.

Sometimes, people that call themselves "Electricians", aren't!!!!!!! Oh Well

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

John, I forgot to mention your earlier post
was on the money.

Yeah electricians are as capable of being sleepy
or distracted as anyone. Do NOT assume your5 electricity is good,
unless you know form past experience in the location.

AND if managment changes in a venue,

don't assume one partner you don't do business with
had the electricals gone through by and electrician
who DIDN'T know the 'weird trick behind the walls'
left by the original electrician
and then 'FIXED THE STUPID MISTAKE'....
Guess what it is NOW wrong,
he just don't know it....

John just be glad you aren't around the electrical wiring WHERE I have to play these days.

Grounds are frowned upon by some electricians...
because people don't wear shoes inside,
and they are scared to be GROUNDED to the electrical system...

I have literally gotten in a fight because I was
REFUSED a grounded plug on stage with the ground attached...
They purposely dettached the ground because
they were worried about it...
I know madness and old wives tales.

And then accused me of being an arrogant foregigner
not understanding Thai ways of doing things...
Sorry Charlie; engineering principals do NOT
respect social customs or fears.

Safe is safe, whether you've lost face or not.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Stu - I strongly recommend you get one of those radioshack-type outlet testers (around 5 bucks) and a cheap volt-ohmeter (I think 5-10 bucks).

Just plug the tester into the outlet, and if it doesn't light up as being exactly correct, tell them they need to fix it, period. Improper electrical wiring can get you electrocuted. No gig is worth this risk to me.

Then set the voltmeter to AC, with a range of 120 volts AC or more, plug into the hot and neutral jacks, and if it's below 110 volts or above 120 volts, they need to fix it, period.

I carry my own test equipment with me to a new venue, and I also use a Furman AR-1215 voltage regulator in case the voltage swings low. But even that won't correct a voltage below around 90 volts AC.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

David, my friend Neil Zaza plays in Thailand occasionally. I shall have to warn him. I know the last time he was there, his elaborate pedal board was fried, even though he was using a transformer.

Rick Johnson · From: Wheelwright, Ky USA

Just curious, if you have 120v at
the wall recptacle, considering
the volatge drop and the undersized
power cord, wonder what the voltage was
at the end of cord?

Rick

www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

What Dave Mudgett said.

I never play anywhere without checking the power source with a line tester (there's a slightly more expensive one - around 9 bucks - that also checks whether GFCI's are wired/working correctly). I also use a line conditioner/voltage regulator. To me these are must-haves. Many older (and some new, as Stu found out) buildings and in my experience almost half the fair or festival stages have bad wiring; reversed polarity is the most common (yes, AC DOES have polarity, and using reversed-polarity for some equipment and correct polarity for others is a nightmare) followed by no ground (the presence of a third hole in the receptacle does NOT mean the circuit is grounded - only that they used a 3-hole receptacle!!).

I don't play games with stage power, and when I've been responsible for the contract I've had a paragraph in it or a rider stating that all power supply has to meet National Electrical Code standards. Normally if I find a bad situation I can find a workaround, but I and most of the guys I play with understand at least basic electronics, which every amplified player (or singer who uses a mic) should. But if I can't make the stage safe for the band, the band is not going to play. I don't believe in risking one's life for the sake of a cheapskate club owner or fair promoter.

As far as the 10' cord and heat - yes, it can cause a LOT of heat. I see people buying 16-gage, 100' cords at Home Depot and cringe; I hope they know what they are doing. I own one 100' cord, and it's a 10-gage. About as heavy as a big tube amp and worth every pound.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Bill A. Moore · From: Silver City, New Mexico, USA

I don't know how the owners feel in your part of the country, but here in SW New Mexico, SE Arizona, I ran right to the breaker box with my own wiring. If that wasn't possible, I would run the cable as close to the breakers as I could, and plug into the wall on 2 circuits from the same leg, and tie the grounds together at my outlet box. We only had about 1200 watts of lighting, so the country groups had no problems. I had 15 amp breakers in my box, and sometimes the R&R group would trip them. Played in Clifton one night and our lead singer plugged her amp into the wall instead of my box, stepped up to the mic for sound check and made her lips numb. It took a couple of sets before she would sing like she meant it. If you have no other option, at least verify that the power and ground/neutral are correct, or you could be seriously hurt.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

And this advice goes up 1,000% when tube amps are involved.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Bill OConnor · From: Castle Rock, Washington, USA * R.I.P.

This is what i did to solve the problem i bought a UPS BATTERY PACK BACK UP AND SURGE PROTECTOR. It goes to battery when voltage is low and blocks high voltage about $75.00 AT HOME DEPOT My session 2000 is a computerized amp would shut down with low voltage at jam sessions , Six amps pulling a heavy load. For the last 2 yrs no shut down playing the same places.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Jim I meant 1000% more dangerous for PLAYERS,
not the equipment.

300-500 volts floating around waiting for
someplace to go in a hurry.
Bad wiring in the world outside too often
has given that place to go...

Thankfully more amps are 3 prong grounded,
and 'death caps' are being dropped from usage.

I have a Peavey Transfex 212s and can't even get it too boot up, and not scramble it's digits in
the north half of the island.
Gotta be a studio amp only here.

And I am building tube amps because they will sound good
a most any voltage and turn on most all the time.
But REALLY want them well grounded....
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

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