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Topic: Push/Pull Questions |
Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 6:28 am |
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Two questions---one hardware, one general.
1) The F lever stop is not firm enough. It stops but has a bit of give. Observation tells me that the stop screw is too long and has poor leverage with the lever so that the entire bracket bends a little even though it is screwed down completely tight.
It seems to me that the reason for the long screw is the position of the bracket (yellow), necessitated by the position of the cross shaft block (blue).
It seems pretty obvious to me that if I moved the cross shaft block one half inch deeper into the shaft then I could move the knee lever bracket much closer to the lever, ending up with an assembly that is as solid as all the others on this guitar.
The only question----am I missing anything? I have done some coped changes on this guitar myself but I've never done any hardware alteration and I'm being super cautious. If I am not missing anything, I am totally competent to do the actual work. (Hammer, nails, crowbar, no prob.  )
2) This is an SD-12. The endplate is cutout for a second changer. Would a '7*...something, I forget, SD-12 leave the factory with a D-12 endplate or is this a D-12 with a neck removed? There are some holes in the underside but they're not inconsistent with simple setup changes over the years.
The only number I can find on this is 148 ST. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 7:15 am
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| Jon, I suspect that that you really just need to go back and re-adjust everything. Tune the changer for the F# on the 4th string, then re-tune the half stop tuner for the F note. You will need to check the travel for the c pedal and the lever, you should be hitting the stop for the lever at the same time you reach the F. You shouldn't need to apply much force to the lever to get that note. If you have too much travel on the lever you could be reaching the f, then just applying more force to the stop. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 7:49 am
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Thanks Bill. But no--just operating the levers by hand I can see that all the other levers have solid stops but this one bends the screw and bracket. The other left-moving lever's bracket is much closer to the lever and the stop-screw is only extended a quarter inch compared with this one's full inch, making a huge difference in how solid and motionless one is compared with the other. There is little question in my mind that this lever was set up in a less-than-optimal fashion in order to work around the existing hardware.
But it seems to me that the fix couldn't be simpler, moving the cross shaft bracket in a fraction to allow the repositioning of the lever-stop bracket. What concerns me is that this seems too simple and I don't trust simple---so I'm wondering if I'm overlooking something critical? |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 9:05 am
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I utilised existing screw-holes on my PP, and made a base plate to mount the knee lever (RKR in this case) and some sturdy stops
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 9:31 am
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Jon, I looked at my guitar just now, one thing I noticed is there is another rod passing through the lower swivel of that bellcrank. It's attached solidly to the bracket for the return springs, a collar on each side of the bracket. There is another collar which hits the bellcrank at exactly the same time as the lever hits the stop. This in effect makes two stops for the lever.
One other thing I noticed is the the crosshaft passes through the center hole of the bracket, so the bracket is located slightly more toward the left. The stop bracket itself is just a little closer to the lever then your is. The lever on my guitar takes virtually no effort to move, if yours requires enough force to bend the bracket, there is something wrong.
_________________
Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 9:57 am
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Those long stop screws with the tab ends are not an ideal fit, and they wobble quite a bit. I'm thinking that is your problem. It's hard for me to believe the bracket actually bends. Looks like to me you can get the stop bracket closer to the lever without having to actually redrill and move the cross-shaft bracket. Seems like there is enough extra metal behind the screws in the cross-shaft bracket so that you could just hacksaw off enough of the bracket to let the stop-screw bracket be placed closer to the lever.
An even simpler solution might be to find a thick nut to screw onto the stop screw from either side. That would help stabilize the long screw, and would do double duty as a locking nut. Those loose stop screws tend to slip and could use a locking nut. Of course that will make it more difficult to tune that stop screw. But once you tune it, it will stay in place better. |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 10:09 am PP Questions
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Jon,
Here is a few photos that show how I set up an F lever on a PP I just sold to another Forum member last week.
Notice that the crossbar is in the middle hole of the bracket instead of the one on the right like yours. Also the bracket is reversed so the crossbar won't deflect at all. It could be that the threads in the bracket for the thumb screw are worn as well, allowing the screw to deflect when the lever hits it. If you wanted, you could try using a jam nut to secure it, like I have done for the stop on the right. Of course you would have to use an open end wrench to free it up, should you need to do a little adjusting. I think once it is set up to raise string 8 properly, you should seldom ever need to do much with it, as string 4 (F note) is adjusted with the half stop tuner. I hope this helps.
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 11:20 am
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Well this is sweet. I've just come back on here to discover that some things that I decided to go ahead and do are some of the things that have been suggested.
David--combined with the fact that the bracket was indeed a bit loose, you are spot on that the long screw, especially as extended as it is, wobbles bad. It has worked itself into a position where the lever actually comes under it and lifts it, exacerbating the issue. But with a zillion small parts around here, I couldn't find the right nut to lock it so I had to work with a plan B.
Lynn, I went and did exactly as you show it---I went into the center hole and I turned the bracket around. The stop screw itself is now pretty tight and stable when not extended so far. I've repositioned the stop-bracket and retensioned the spring on the turn screw with nut & washers and I now have what seems to be a rock solid stop.
btw, Lynn, that is some beautiful work. I love the nylon washers and the real thumb screws. Totally classy work.
I'm glad to have gotten my feet wet doing this. It has improved this guitar and I now know that the simpler mechanical elements are not mysterious. What you see is what it is. I'm talking about the obvious simple stuff. I'm well aware of the fact that there's other stuff here that I wouldn't touch without doing a whole lot of homework. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 1:39 pm
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| Bill Moore wrote: |
| .....there is another rod passing through the lower swivel of that bellcrank. It's attached solidly to the bracket for the return springs, a collar on each side of the bracket. There is another collar which hits the bellcrank at exactly the same time as the lever hits the stop. This in effect makes two stops for the lever. |
In addition to the changes you've already made, I think it's always a good idea to place a second stop by using a collar that contacts the return spring plate, as described above. This takes some of the load off the knee lever stop and makes for a more positive feel as well.
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 12 Apr 2008 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 1:58 pm
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| Richard---I totally failed to acknowledge your photos. I have no intention of doing such major fabrication (nor have I the chops) so your work provided little for my situation other than the observation that those stops ain't going nowhere. It looks seriously solid and I'll bet it is. |
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Lynn Stafford
From:
Ridgefield, WA USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 2:03 pm
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Tony,
I'm glad you brought that up. I also use that method for the stops on the RL lever. I use the hole for string 7 in the return spring bracket to attatch a long drop rod that goes through a low swivel in a bell crank on the RL knee cross bar. I then use a set collar on either side of the swivel to stop that lever in each direction. That same rod extends all the way out to the LL lever and goes through a low swivel in another bell crank. There, I use a couple of weaker than normal shock springs and a set collar to keep the LL knee lever from flopping too much when you lower the E's with the LR knee. IMHO I don't recommend using redundant stops on the same lever though. One good one should be sufficient and it's really difficult to make them both bottom out at exactly the same time.
Jon, Thanks very much for your kind remarks!
_________________
Best regards,
Lynn Stafford
STEEL GUITAR WEST
http://www.steelguitarwest.com
Steel Guitar Technician (Restoration, Set-up, Service and Repair work)
Previous Emmons Authorized Dealer & Service Technician (original factory is now closed)
ZumSteel Authorized Service Technician
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 2:42 pm
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Lynn, I don't think it's that tough to set up.....Just press and maintain the knee lever at it's stop,then slide the collar along the "lower rod" until it contacts the front of the return spring plate and tighten the collar set screw. Finis!
That said, your Emmons pix look very nice. You are truly an Emmons maven. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 3:45 pm
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| Quote: |
| Would a '7*...something, I forget, SD-12 leave the factory with a D-12 endplate... |
No, never! If there's two holes in the endplate, it used to be a double-neck.
Your stop bracket looks small and flimsy. Moving it would help, but I'd have someone make a better one. At least, it should have a gusset on the side. and a larger (longer) base, like the ones on the right knee. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 10:58 pm
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| Quote: |
| No, never! If there's two holes in the endplate, it used to be a double-neck. |
Donny,
Emmons used to use the same endplates for there D10s and SD10s on a pretty regular basis. It was a common feature on the early LeGrandes.
_________________
Bob |
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