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Topic: ? for builders re placement of pedal stop |
Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 6:24 am |
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I have reached the point in building my pedal steel where I have to decide where to put the pedal stops.
I had an MSA in the 70's that had the pedal stop on the pedal bar under the pedal. All of my other guitars had/have the pedal stop on the front apron. After doing some searches in the new forum as well as the old forum, I still don't know the best answer.
Why do you place the pedal stop on the apron or pedal bar? Did you make the choice because it provides a better result?
Karlis  |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 6:29 am
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| Way to go Karlis! I knew we'd get you to post this here. Help him out guys 'n gals! |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 7:18 am
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| The pedal bar will tend to flex. If you use it to stop the pedal travel, you will probably have problems with repeatability of the notes being raised or lowered. You will tend to continue to push the pedal even though it has come to a stop. This ""over travel" will not be repeatable with any accuracy. |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 8:16 am
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John, What if the pedal bar rested on the floor or was supported in several places? Would that change the dynamics?
Do you get the same effect of over-travel when the stops are mounted on the apron - only to a lesser extent?
Karlis |
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Colm Chomicky
From:
Kansas, (Prairie Village)
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 8:55 am
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| I'll take a guess on that in terms of more points of contact. I suppose the flexing of the pedal bar could be more of a twist (torsional) than a downward bow, therefore more contact points on the floor would not solve this. Plus floors themselves may be irregular or warped. So with changing floor conditions, the pedal bar may not always be in the same position due to the way the legs may flex and re-align themselves on different floors. So your tuning may get thown off even time you set up on a different surface type. Also engaging knee levels puts a sideways flex on the system that would change the stop distance I suppose. |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 9:00 am
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| Karlis Abolins wrote: |
| John, What if the pedal bar rested on the floor or was supported in several places? Would that change the dynamics? |
It would but you might not get enough travel on the pedals resting on the floor. The second idea depends on the design of the support. You would still probably not realize a positive stop. Bobby Bowman would have more info on pedal bar stops as he spent some time designing this into his B guitar.
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| Do you get the same effect of over-travel when the stops are mounted on the apron - only to a lesser extent? |
It depends on the design. You should try to design the amount of force used to activate the pedals to be minimal and the feel of the stop to provide positive feedback that says "I'm done. There isn't any more left." |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 10:36 am
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There are a variety of ways to do this. Another one that comes to mind is a part that attaches to the cross shaft and stops against the body (not the front apron) of the guitar.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 3:01 pm
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Karlis, here are two types that I designed on my last two guitars. Both are very sturdy. The one that mounts to the bottom of the deck and also the apron is especially sturdy. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 3:04 pm
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Just to explore all avenues... Would it be feasible to have both types of stops? That way, the stresses are more evenly divided and each stop experiences less flexing, ie the pedal bar has less twist and the cabinet has less downward pull.
Adjustments could be installed to ensure that each stop carries 50% of the load. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 3:15 pm
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Martin, I never get tired of looking at your work. Every detail is so well thought out and just a beauty to behold.
Karlis, and pro builders alike, pay close attention to Martin's craftsmanship. We have a lot to learn here.
Karlis, your answer might lie in the 'red' picture where Martin anchors the stop bracket to both the body and the apron. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 10:33 pm
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| The optimum method, for tuning accuracy and minimal cabinet drop, in my opinion, is to have a one-piece bar running down the apron, similar to Martin's first picture, with the cross-shaft pivots and the stops attached to the same bar |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2008 10:58 pm
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What John Fabian said. Ideally you want the stop itself as close to the pedal rod as possible to prevent twist, flex, and all the other gremlins involved. If your stops were actually part of the 'pull cranks' so that the pedal rods stop 'right there', that's the best and most consistent...key word here being 'consistent'...stop you can ever hope to get. Placing them out in left field, the torque/twist thing enters the equation and it's difficult to get any sort of consistent, repetitive stop. You'd most likely be disappointed with the results. The same negative dynamics could occur if you pulled at the front end of the cross-shaft and stopped the travel at the rear. The twist would almost certainly guarantee twist at times which would drive you over the edge trying to eliminate. Push the pedal gently, you'd get one setting: push it hard, and it would go askew on you for sure.
Incorporate them as part of your pedal-pull crank and 'stop' them firmly right there. You'll never regret it IMO.
PRR |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2008 10:52 am
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Thank you to all of you you who replied to this thread. Your responses have helped me to decide on the apron approach for the pedal stops. The pedal board approach has too many traps to be considered a viable option.
Martin, In one of your pictures you have a nylon stop and in the other picture you have just a screw. Does the nylon add or detract from the equation?
Another question comes to mind. With just a screw making contact, does the screw wear into the pull lever over time and cause a shift in the stop position? Does it also cause the screw or bracket to distort the threads due to angular contact with the
pull lever?
Karlis |
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Martin Weenick
From:
Lecanto, FL, USA
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Posted 14 Apr 2008 11:33 am Nylon Stop
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Actually Karlis I have nylon acorn nuts on both types, it just wasent on when I took the picture. The screw, ( if screwed on till the screw bottoms out in the nylon nut, there is no compression and is very quiet. Martin.
_________________
Several custom steels. NV-112 Boss DD-7 |
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