guitarist playin psg licks...what to do?

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Hi Folks,

I finally got up the courage to haul my psg out of the bedroom and go play with a group. The telecaster player was a semi-beginnner (which is great because so am I on psg) whose main "lick" is that faux pedal steel bend we all know Mad

Its exactly like me bringin in my A pedal...I'm sure you know the lick I mean.

What do, or what would would you folks do, in this situation?
-ask her nicely not to do it? (awkward since its her best and seemingly only lick)
-mimic it on steel everytime she does it?
-blow her doors off with some insane bends only a psg can handle? (tough cause, well....that bringin the A pedal is one of MY only licks too)

thanks for the help.

Jory Simmons · From: Elkhorn, Wisconsin, USA

Yeah!!!!!!!! Ask her not to do that lick...by all means.......I've been in that same situation, and the guitarist (He) understood. Devil

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Jory Simmons

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Uhhhh! I wouldn't do or say anything about it. It's been a standard bend for 6-stringers for a very, very long time. You get into a group, and want to start a conflict right away? Nah! Keep workin' on your stuff. You'll leave her in the dust in no time as far as bending notes.

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

When I was young I played with several lead guitarist's that overdid that lick as well. It just encouraged me to learn new phrasings that they could not duplicate.

Jonathan Shacklock · From: London, UK

Ben, congratulations on getting in a band. I would do my best to keep them grateful, at least until you've outgrown them, or you get 'big in Japan' – whichever comes first.

Maybe you can put your heads together and come up with some sort of epic duelling A-pedal lick twin solo. And then make a deal to keep out of each other's way for the rest of the set...?

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Bend a harmony note with her. Use a different pull....Eb lever. Or, rock onto the B pedal. Experiment a little.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

Bring in Steve Peticco Smile

JJ

Jory Simmons · From: Elkhorn, Wisconsin, USA

SORRY!!!!!!I guess I meant "It don't hurt to ask".....These other guys are right...Nicer is better..If I remember way back when....I tried to learn the steel part to "teach your Children" on My tele, But I got frustrated doin that , and thats when I bought My first PSG.
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Jory Simmons

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Apr 2008 11:50 am

I like what Phil Baugh had to say one night when a local steel player he was jamming with tried to impress him by trying to imitate the low-bendy licks which Phil used on some George Jones cuts...Phil looked at him and said..."son, you handle the pedal steel licks, I'll take care of the pedal guitar stuff, ok?" you had to love 'ol Phil Wink

That stuff irritates me as well, but the advice to not kill your new gig before it barely starts seems wise to me......
If that fails try the Franklin lick, lowering 5 & 6 each a whole tone together while keeping the 4th string neutral...Ive seen guitar players nearly pull their hair out trying to get that one to fly, too funny!! Laughing

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Mike, I play that lick all the time on 6-string. But I've been bending strings on guitar since I bought my first Buck Trent album in '64.

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Apr 2008 12:01 pm

yes John, but can you bend to the lowers then raise up to what would be pedals A & B then back to open in one fluid motion still keeping the tonic neutral? Thats the typical use I was referring to. Not to mention lowering the tonic note a 1/2 tone once the lowers are simulated? Props if you can......

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Thanks for the advice everyone. I am not into conflict anymore, period....I just want the music to sound as good as it can. I will say nothing and adapt. I learned more about my playing in those two hours than i have in the past two years combined of playing in my bedroom , so I would like to continue to be invited back for more.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Let me make sure we're talkin' 'bout the same thing. Holding the E note, and lowering the B and G# notes a whole tone to A and F#, and then back up? If that's what you're talkin' about, that's a piece of cake! If that's not them, let me know. On 6-string, one has to play it in the 12th fret region.
1st string, 12th fret, E
2nd string,10th fret, A and pre-bent to B
3rd string, 11th fret,F#, pre-bent to G#
Release the bends while holding the 1st string E. Bend back up, or go to the 7th fret. Hold the B note on the first string, and bend the 2 and 3 rd strings up a whole tone to a nice Emajor chord.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Good thinkin' Ben!

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Apr 2008 12:34 pm

I see, John.
However, as to your description of how you accomplish the lick, it appears that the lick can only be played on a 6 string guitar in the key of E, using the 12th and 7th fret(Im guessing to allow for room to bend comfortably, etc). I had to learn the fretted dobro parts to "Harper Valley PTA" so I think we're on the same page with regard to multiple bends on a 6 string.
Also, on your second move you drop the E string to the 7th fret B, which the lick I described doesnt do. The E maintains throughout; a smooth bend from neutral to the lowers, then up to neutral then up to the 4 chord and back to neutral all in one move.
On a steel guitar that particular lick can be played in most any key not just E, so its not just an effect used only in a certain spot, but part of an actual cohesive musical thought which is able to be played wherever its deemed to fit. Thats what I was getting at.
But why would one try to imitate steel guitar on a 6 string anyway, except for the novelty, or the legit lack of a psg player in the band? In my experience its usually because many guitarists, esp those who play at country music seem to be frustrated steel guitarists in the first place, or theyre trying to impress us with what they can do... Phil Baugh, while he could out-steel alot of steel guitarists with just his factory installed whammy bar, didnt because his sense of musical taste told him that it was usually unnecessary if a steel was present in the band.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Mike, I just used that example because it was in E. I use that move in many different keys, as low as G, 3rd fret. You can really only do it using the first 3 strings (because of the closer interval between strings 3 &2), but there's the same limitation on steel. But it's strings 4, 5, and 6. I use prebends a lot. I've always done double-duty with the bands I've been in. Pedal Steel and Lead guitar.
These bends I'm talkin' about are done on regular 6-string, but I also have a double-bender guitar. I never use the benders on stage. But I did use the three toggles to lower the 1st, 5th, and 6th strings down a whole tone. Puts the guitar in low-bass G tuning for Dobro and Bottleneck licks. Great for playin' Jackson's "Mercury Blues!" I enjoy playing Danny Gatton and Hellecaster's stuff. I guess I just bend a lot.[/b]

Mike Poholsky · From: Kansas, USA

Hey Ben, Sounds like you had a great time. Just keep it up. Don't worry about that lick, is WAY over done anyway. Use it when you have to, and just keep learning. I wish I had started playing live alot sooner than I did. Thats when everything starts moving along. I wish I'd had this Forum back when I started!!!! Just ask, I'm sure you'll get some help here.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Mike C, the 7th fret bends are a completely different inversion of an E chord. With out the bends, it's just an E chord at the 7th fret. 1st string 7th fret, 2nd and 3rd strings 9th fret. You just bend strings 2, and 3 up a whole tone from the 7th fret to another E chord resolution. Then you can release them and you'll have an E9th chord, which nicely leads one to the 4 chord, Amaj.
The "Franklin" move is the one up at the 11th, 10, and 12th frets. The E on the 12th fret never moves. The pre-bent strings lower to A, and F#. I do this lick anywhere from the 3rd fret to the 31st fret (Dano Guitarlin!) The 7th fret lick is just one resolution that's possible, taking one back to an E chord, albeit a different one than the "Franklin" move.

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Apr 2008 1:13 pm

Doing double duty is certainly one legit reason to cop steel licks, as I agreed to above. You cant be in 2 places at the same time.
However with regard to the actual string grouping used on psg for the lick in question, it can be found in another place as well, different string grouping etc. That would be(in the key of A for ex): start at the 8th fret A pedal,E to F lever and 6th string lower(whole tone)lever using strings 5,6,8...(2 min sus fragment?)..pick and slide to 10th fret while releasing A pedal and E to F lever and engage E lower while still holding 6th string lower to F# and you will arrive at the 1 chord. Then still in the same motion without re-picking release those 2 levers to the 4 chord, then back to the 8th fret
(2 min sus frag? same as the first move), resolving then to 10th fret, releasing A pedal and E to F lever to E's lowered and 6th string full lower still as well(1 chord).
Sorry, but I cant see how that could be done seamlessly on a 6 string w/o the aid of pedals or a whammy bar, but I'll keep an open mind.
My point is this; some things are associated with steel while some are not. I just think its poor musicianship for a guitarist to continuously hammer home one of the psg's most recognizable cliches.... it sounds like passive-aggressive behavior to me and I dont tolerate it.

John Ciano · Posted 7 Apr 2008 1:18 pm

First of all I do not recommend anyone to do any of the things that I have ever done, but, I went to an audition where the group was not sure if they wanted a guitar player or a steel. They had a guitar player auditioning with me and after a few minutes I realized he was trying to out pedal steel me on guitar, and being rather obnoxious about it. At this point I went into my gig bag and pulled out my wah-wah and my "RAT" distortion unit at which point I tried to out guitar him. With no dilutions of grandure the end of the story is I was offerd the job.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Mike,
No, I can't do that second lick you've described, on a 6-string. The difficult thing about copping steel licks to 6-string, are the slides. 6-string has frets, and slides don't sound the same. However, on my 6-string with the benders, and with manual bends, I can play songs like "Bar Hoppin'" and "Bud's Bounce." I just do it for the fun, the challenge, and the satisfaction! As I said, never on stage. Heck, I've got a steel there with me! My Dad used to relax by working out complex math problems. I relax by trying to figure out Lloyd Green licks on 6-string. My favorite is simple: the intro to the Byrds' version of "You're Still On My Mind."

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Apr 2008 1:37 pm

John C, I wouldve been waiting with baited breath for something like "Look At Us" to come up on the playlist,as I do like to hide in wait Wink

but your solution seems to have worked quite well!

A Nashville studio guitarist used to have a rack he carried around to sessions which held several of his guitars within easy reach of where he sat. One side of that rack had pasted on, pre-printed stickers which consisted of a red circle with a red slash through it with a pic of a psg in the middle.....
he'd peel off the backing and stick a new one on every time he knocked a steel off of an intro or turnaround. He wasnt big on imitating steel, he just outplayed it, commercially speaking. I asked him about it once and he told me that was for when a steel player took the "safe" tack and offered nothing new musically that he hadnt heard before. Apparently it got his dander up and he felt the need to rescue the track from boredom and poor playing.
He had alot of stickers on that rack........but he never put out a new one when we worked together.
Intially I was apprehensive to work with him, but a more pleasant experience(s) musically speaking Ive found, were few and far between in the studio. And I got more than my fair share of intros and t/a's with him, a fact that stymied several of his other steel regulars.
Again, I would side with Phil Baugh on this one.
If the guitar picker insists on playing steel licks, shut their amp off next time, theyll get the message!

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Great story, Mike. Most other steel players that I know really hate bender guitars and bottleneck. I enjoy all of these including lapsteel and Dobro, and I have of bunch of pedal guitars. I guess I'm an equal opportunity offender! I suspect my boss, Jerry Brightman, also hates slide and benders. Whenever I mention either one, he changes the subject. I think he does it to avoid unpleasantness! Smile

Mike Cass · Posted 7 Apr 2008 1:54 pm

Dont get me wrong, some of my favorite music features steel and guitar together, bending their a$$es off Wink

Its just the monotonous I to IV pedal change that some guitarists dwell on that irks me. Bend away!

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I set my wire cutters in plain view and tell the guitar player that if I hear him play a steel guitar lick, I will cut off his strings. The guitar players I play with all have a good sense of humor. And yes, they still play the licks.
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