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Topic: What Is Preferred Scale Length? |
Rocky Hill
From:
Prairie Village,Kansas, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 5:48 am |
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What is the most common, or preferred scale length for a non pedal console type steel, not lap. And why or what makes the difference?
The Fender Triple that Cindy Cashdollar plays on her DVD has a tone/sound that is pleasing to my ear, and was wonder what scale length that guitar has, and difference in sound scale length makes.
Rocky |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 6:17 am
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Some players prefer a shorter scale as being easier to do slants. Jerry Byrd's favorite scale length was 22 1/2".
Personally, I prefer a longer scale.
I feel that the longer the scale, the longer the sustain. I have a 26" scale Stringmaster that really rings out. Cindy Cashdollar plays a Stringmaster but I'm not sure as to the scale length.
Fender made Stringmasters with 22 1/2", 24 1/2" and 26" scale lengths at one time. In the later production years, they phased out the long scale model. |
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Rocky Hill
From:
Prairie Village,Kansas, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 7:01 am
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What really got me to thinking about this is I have a GFI S-10 SM, that I am using for basic measurements for building my steel that I'm working on now.
I measured my GFI and it measures 23.5?? I doubled checked and it's 11.75 from nut to 12th fret. I went to GFI web site and it says all there steels are 24" scale.
I called GFI this morning and asked about it, and all I got from the man who answered the phone at 8:20 cst this morning was basically I don't know what to tell you, a little long a little short if the fret board is in the correct place it doesn't matter.
I don't know, correct if if I'm wrong, but I would think it does matter! If a fret board was made for a 24" scale and it measures 23.5 that would explain why to get the correct sounding note, I have to play in front of the fret. I was kind of disappointed after speaking to GFI about this .
Rocky |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 7:10 am
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The fretboard has to match the scale length or else your guitar won't play right.
I got a couple reproduction Sho~Bud fretboards some time ago and they were off just a bit and I couldn't use them.
Measure from the nut by the tuners to the top of the changer. I'm sure the scale of a GFI is 24". |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 7:22 am
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| The guy who answered the phone at GFI must have been the janitor. |
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Rocky Hill
From:
Prairie Village,Kansas, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 8:30 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
The fretboard has to match the scale length or else your guitar won't play right.
I got a couple reproduction Sho~Bud fretboards some time ago and they were off just a bit and I couldn't use them.
Measure from the nut by the tuners to the top of the changer. I'm sure the scale of a GFI is 24". |
I will recheck when I get home, But I can guarantee it doesn't measure 24"
Rocky |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 9:40 am
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My understanding is that these days the 22 1/2 inch non pedal models are recommended for beginners. That is because it is in fact much easier to do slants on a short scale instrument. I understand further that it is most common for accomplished players to graduate to a longer scale guitar. The longer the scale, the richer the tone. I've heard tell of someone making a 27 incher. But only one. 24 to 26 seems most common.
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 2:21 pm
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| One of Roland Peachey's guitar was an Abbott twin 8 with a 30" scale. |
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Tom Baylis
From:
Portland, Oregon
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Posted 1 Apr 2008 2:51 pm
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Scale length also affects string tension relative to particular tunings, which also has a lot to do with tone and harmonics. In terms of the relationship between string tension and tone, I don't think it matters per se whether one uses frets or a bar.
This from another guitarist: "String tension, harmonic content, attack - the very heart and soul of the guitar, are intimately related to scale length."
This is one of the reasons why I find lap steel so fascinating! I have a few lap steels with different scale lengths, and each responds and presents itself quite differently depending on which tuning and string gauge I use on each one, not to mention bar, pick and attack, pickup, etc. Same with fretted instruments. |
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2008 6:09 am
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I've got a 22 1/2" scale Gibson Console Grande that seems to have alot of sustain. Maybe due to the massive piece of maple its made from. I also have a 24" scale Bluestem lap that seems to sustain forever. I like them both for different reasons.
Mark |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2008 8:28 am
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| I know that a longer scale will produce more sustain, and I also know that there is more tension on the strings ....With this information being what it is , what scale length adds most to the harmonic's coming into play more on a steel ? ...In other words what scale length will give you better harmonics ? ..Longer scale ?...Shorter Scale ? ...Other variables ?......Thanks, Jim |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 2 Apr 2008 8:45 am
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| If tuned to the same pitch, short and long scale necks can have the same tension. To achieve that, the shorter neck will have heavier gauge strings. Of course, if you take string sets of the same gauge and put them on a short scale and long scale, the long scale will have more tension. In both situations, the longer neck will have richer harmonics and more sustain. It seems like this affects the lower strings most. On short scales with really low tunings you can increase the string gauge to keep the tension up, but on the low strings you reach a point where the thick strings are just clunky sounding, regardless of the tension. |
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Mark Roeder
From:
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2008 11:49 am
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David
Can you tell me the heaviest gauge you would go with on a low F# or E on a 22 1/2" scale?
Mark |
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Rocky Hill
From:
Prairie Village,Kansas, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2008 11:57 am
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| If tuned to the same pitch, short and long scale necks can have the same tension. To achieve that, the shorter neck will have heavier gauge strings. Of course, if you take string sets of the same gauge and put them on a short scale and long scale, the long scale will have more tension. In both situations, the longer neck will have richer harmonics and more sustain. It seems like this affects the lower strings most. On short scales with really low tunings you can increase the string gauge to keep the tension up, but on the low strings you reach a point where the thick strings are just clunky sounding, regardless of the tension. |
It seem like the conciseness is the longer scale would be better. I decided to make my build with a 24" scale.
I also stand corrected on my previous post about my GFI not being 24". I mistakenly measured from the end of the fret board and not from the center of the roller on the nut, as it does indeed measure 24".
Rocky |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2008 12:03 pm
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Mark,
Low E: .056 |
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Tom Pettingill
From:
California, USA (deceased)
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2008 9:13 pm
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I must disagree with the comment that 22.5 is for beginners and longer scales are what accomplished players "graduate" to. Jerry Byrd, Bob Koefer, Kayton Roberts and numerous other master players have always played 22.5, and after years of playing 26" four neck Stringmasters, Noel Boggs "graduated" back to a 22.5 triple neck.
I think your style is the determining factor when choosing scale length, not your skill level. Probably 1/3 of what I play is a slant, with probably the same percentage involving a string being pulled with my left hand ring finger a half or full step behind the bar. If you want to get a three string slant over frets 1, 2 and 3 a short scale guitar is really your best bet.
It can be done on a 24.5 with a big tone bar, but the amount of "slant buzz" on the first string is too much for my ears, and if you pull a string behind the bar a full step on a 24.5 guitar with standard 8 string spacing, you end up pulling the next lowest string slightly which puts that lower string out of tune, so for my playing needs, I prefer a 22.5 with a 2 3/4" length bar.
You could argue that for playing harmonics, the short scale requires more finesse, as you have less room to work with on the right hand side. It does always suprise me how easy my chimes are when I sit down behind a long scale guitar, but that is a compromise I am willing to make to suit my stylistic needs.
I say it's just different. Some guitarists prefer a 24.75 Les Paul while some prefer a 25.5 Telecaster, some drummers prefer a 16""x20" kick while some prefer a 14"x24".
Whatever one needs to get the job done in their own way.
CS |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 7 Apr 2008 3:30 am
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| Chris, I couldn't agree more. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 7 Apr 2008 2:13 pm
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I agree with Chris and Basilh. Scale length has nothing to do with experience. It's a playing style preference. Slants on the low frets work better on shorter necks. 22 1/2" seems to be the classic short neck length for Hawaiian and swing players who use a lot of slants. Tone, sustain and harmonics are better on longer necks, but you certainly don't hear any deficiency in this regard among the top players of the past who used short necks.
Mark R., I see 0.056 gauge for low E strings in some 12-string pedal steel sets. These are for 24" or 24 1/2" necks, and they also allow for a pedal raise to F. So I would think a non-pedal with a 22 1/2" neck could take 0.056 up to 0.062. Basically you want the tension to feel about the same as on your other strings. |
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