MSA D10 -- Struggling with tone

Gary Grubb · From: Petaluma, California, USA

I recently purchased an older MSA Super Sustain II D-10 8X4 and am struggling with getting a good sound.

To put things in context, I played PSG from 1970 - 1985 as a second instrument for the bands I played in. I sold my ZB D-10 a few years back to young guy on this forum and kicked myself for several years.

Back in the day, I would have liked to have an MSA, because I thought that they made sense mechanically. I never actaully heard one live.

The MSA I just purchased is really structurally very sound, cosmetically near perfect. The E9 pickup had been replaced with what appears to be a "George L". The caligraphy is a bit difficult on the eyes.

I don't have an actual "approved" PSG amp. I always played the ZB through a twin and to my ear, it sounded pretty good.

I have tried the MSA through the Twin, through a Fender Acoustisonic Jr. and directly through a Mackie Onyx 1220 PA and two Mackie SRM450 powered speakers. I have a Lexicon MX200 providing effects.

I have not been able to get a rich tone. Surely I am doing something wrong.

I would appreciate helpful comments.

Corky Anderson · From: Alberta, Canada

Hey Gary, try a Nashville 1000 or a Nashville 400 amp. Also, I am using a Lexicon Mx 200 and I am going to get rid of it. I had a much richer sound with my old Alesis Midiverb but it died on me and I thought I would try the Lexicon. Another thing that I find to be a big help in expanding your sound is the new Delay and Reverb pedals by Boss. These are very good, and will rival the sound of an expensive rack mount effect. And of course you can put them in your pac-seat and save packing a rack box around.

I hope this helps you in your search...and good luck!!

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

If your ear is used to the glorious tone of the ZB you will very likely never be happy with the old MSAs.
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Bob

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Have you tried listening to someone else play your guitar? Sometimes that can be an interesting experience.

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

I had an interesting day with Charles Tilley at his house very recently. Charles had a single 10 MSA and a D10 Excel. Both sounded totally different when I played them, and while I am not prepared to say which was my own and Charles' preference, one was much clearer with a bell-like tone.

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

I have a '72 or '73 [Reese does not know for sure] single 12 universal, black with stock MSA single coil pickup, I have been playing it through either an Evans SE-150, or a Fender Steel King, sounds great to me, maybe its because its black??
I do use a Boss SE-50 for a little delay & reverb through both of those amps. Maybe you should try some of the amps mentioned above.
The truth is, sound is different for each person & I will admit the old D-10 ZB's sure sounded good also.

Ernie Pollock Very Happy

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I just recently re-built a '74 MSA Classic D10 that has the original single coil pickups. When I first started playing it, it sounded terrible, and I was really disappointed, so I sat down to it one day and started looking for something that would cause it to sound so bad, and the first thing that jumped out was the pickup height. I hadn't raised the pickups after I strung it up, so I tried it and VIOLA!!! the tone just jumped right out of that guitar. I haven't measured the height, but I would estimate approximately 3/32" to 1/8" under the strings. Now, I really can't tell much difference in the sound of it, and my new MSA's, so I'm a really happy camper. So, you may try adjusting the pickup up or down and see the difference it makes.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Need to know what amp settings you're using and also what kind of volume pedal.

Also...need to know what kind of sound you're really looking for. Twin Reverbs are kinda limited, tonally, due to not having a "shift" control. (No flak please, I used one for over 20 years, and I used to service and mod them - I know what they can and can't do.)

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I doubt it's anything you're doing as a player. As previously mentioned, pickup height could be part of it - but if the Twin has been properly serviced it should sound fine (although not at low volume - Twins as a rule are VERY thin at low levels).

I had an MSA Classic D10 and it was dead as a doornail tonally. Obviously, tone is a subjective issue, however I've been around enough stringed instruments to recognize something that had a "dead" sound IMO - and the MSA was dry, there was no complexity to the harmonic response and it just had no punch. I have not played a ZB but from what I have read you're probably miles from your "target" tone. The ZB's I've heard all had some punch and bite to them, plus a "round" tone that sounded "guitar-like"...which some don't like but I find appealing (I prefer my GFI Ultra and old cable-pull Fenders for exactly that reason - I have found nothing that matches them tonally).
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

First, I have a suggestion: get one of Tommy Dodd's POD XT units with his patches. That might help you considerably. You might also think about replacing the pickup. I have a George L 5 position in the guitar shown in my avatar and get a very fat sound out of it when it's in the humbucking position.

A new amp with a 15 inch speaker, or a retrofit for your twin might help, but that gets expensive.

Bear this in mind. An older MSA is never going to sound like a ZB or an Emmons or a Sho-Bud. MSA's have their own sound. A good analogy would be a big hollow body jazz guitar vs a tele or strat. That jazz box is never going to sound like a tele, no matter what you do.

The secret of getting a good tone out of an MSA, especially one with a a maple lacquer body like yours, is to accentuate the guitars natural characteristics. In my case this means more emphasis on the mid-range, less on the treble.
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Paul Wade · From: mundelein,ill

yep, what mike said. Ive been playing msa's for about 22 years now never did like the org. pickups in the
older msa's i always swap out pickups for ether B,L'S
705'S or G,L's. i have one older msa d-10 classic ss
that has org sustain 11 pups and it sounds real good.
also, amp 's have alot to do with the sound. session 400
is all i need. just, my 2 cents Smile

p.w

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

You shouldn't have sold the ZB....You shouldn't have sold the ZB...

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I failed to make it clear in my last post that I was referring to the older MSA guitars. They are the ones that have their own sound. I was not referring to the Millenniums and Legends, which sound much more generic.

3 or 4 years ago, when the first Millenniums showed up at the convention, and I was not there, I asked one of our fellow forumites what they sounded like. His answer was that "They sound like a steel guitar."
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Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I had a ZB for several years, and it sounded good, but I still sounded like "me". I've never owned a guitar that I couldn't get a good sound out of, and I've owned a mess of them. Sometimes it took some tweaking, but I got there.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Dave Harmonson · From: Seattle, Wa

I played an MSA with super sustains II,s from '82 until last April when I got a GFI Ultra. I could never get the MSA to sound good through a Twin or any tube amp for whatever reason. I played through a Session 400 and later an LTD 400 and I was able to get a good sound from both of those amps. For about the last three years I played it through an Evans FET 500 with a JBL and I liked it even better than either one of the Peavey's. I've been playing the GFI through a Fender Vibrosonic and I love the sound. FWIW I think the supersustain II's have too much mid punch to play through anything but an ultra clean high powered amp.

richard burton · From: Britain

What's the tone like when the steel is plugged directly into the amp, with no volume pedal?
Poor/wrongly wired volume pedals can play havoc with a steel's tone.

Gary Grubb · From: Petaluma, California, USA

Wow, you guys have overwhelmed me... in a good way.

The only two PSG players that I know personally within 30 miles are Dave Zirbel and Jon Mitguard. Dave plays a ZB and has already expressed a not so glowing opinion on the MSA. I think Jon is playing a Sierra, I might have to give him a call. Sadly, I have to take my atonal MSA to a session tomorrow.

I appreciate the many responses... you have all given me something to think about. Personnaly, I never much liked the Twin for steel, it wasn't a rich sound, just OK, but it was what I had at the time.

I'll look into the various options you all have presented and see where it takes me.

Thx again,

Gary

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

Get a steel guitar amp - that's most of your problem.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

You haven't said what kind of sound you're looking for. Myself, I'd never describe a ZB as a "rich sounding" guitar. ZB's are heavily weighted towards the highs, sharp and clear as a bell, but no real "meat" on the bottom end. The Sho~Bud is what I'd classify as a "rich sounding" guitar. One need only to listen to Lloyd Green for proof. Whereas, the quintessential ZB "razor sharp" tone was always heard from Tom Brumley.

Anyhow, if it's "full-bodied" tones you're lookin' for, turn the mids way down on the Twin, to 1 or 2. Turn the bass up to 6 or higher, and turn the treble to around 3. That's the settings that get you "rich and full" from a Twin.

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Jon Mitgard plays a 12 string Excel universal.

Yes, it's true I couldn't get my MSA to sound like I wanted when I had one. I have heard some good one though. Not sure what it is or why.

You can come by my house and pick up my Webb for your session. I don't need it this weekend. It has an Altec 418B speaker and might help the situation. Maybe going direct will get you though the session too.

Dave

Scott Hiestand · From: MA, U.S.A

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Speaking of Lloyd, he seems to think a Twin is just fine, albeit with a couple of 15's. Smile

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