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Topic: What's the best way to obtain the tone of early steel? |
Jim Manley
From:
bremerton Washington, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 7:33 pm |
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I was soaking in the hot tub tonight listening to XM radio (Willies place)and as normal they were rattling off some great country from the past.I already was aware that the steel guitars of the 50's&early 60's.and even before that had a unique tone.I listened to the greats like Webb Pierce,Kitty Wells,Lefty and Hank just to name a few.If i am wrong then i wish to be corrected but it is my understanding that there were limited steel makers at that time(Fender seems to be a big item back then)I guess my question is what does it take to replicate that same unmistaken tone?Other than using the same type of guitar and amp. Can it be found with new equiptment?
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fessenden d10,nashville 112,nashville 1000,peavey session 500,transtubefex,goodrich steeldriver 111,Gibson hound dog dobro,Appalacian resonator guitar.Marshall AS50D acoustic amp,Fishman Jerry Douglas imaging pedal. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:04 pm
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| Quote: |
| Can it be found with new equiptment? |
The simple answer is no. A good part of the "unmistaken tone" comes from the limitations of the instrument, as well as the amplifier. The difficulty of say, pedal travel, would influence how the guitar is played, which would influence the "tone". And of course, what the guitar is made of, how it was made, what kind of pickup as well as the changer all contribute to the tone. As an example, the Bigsby changer had a 1/4" axle. That's the only guitar that had that, as far as I know. The new guitars "fixed" all the problems of the old guitars and if you're getting started, that's what you want to learn on. |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:07 pm
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| Jim, a lot of that classic sound was played on non pedal steel guitars so it's hard if not impossible to get the same sound on a modern day pedal steel. I've heard some come close to the 60's Fender sound with modern steel guitars but the older non pedal sound is really hard to duplicate. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:16 pm
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Alas, I share your curiosity, and the opinions of others that it can't be done except by using the old equipment. I love the sounds of those old Bigsby and Fender pedal steels, through the old amps, but have never been able to get anywhere close using my "modern" gear.  |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:24 pm
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One major difference is the pickups are wound to much lower resistance/inductance on Fenders (and the Bigsby also, although I have not measured one of of those), basically a Strat pickup thats a little longer with more polepieces.
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Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:34 pm
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Steel guitars of the 50s and 60s had a "thinner" tone than modern PSGs. Primarily due to the pickups, in my opinion. And the amps of that era had a lot to do with it. Modern PSGs have a fatter tone, hotter output, more sustain, more low end, etc. It's not possible to get a thin, stark, plain and simple vintage tone on a modern pedal steel. There really is such a thing as "vintage tone".  As Chas said, a lot of it comes from the 'limitations' of the equipment... or what most contemporary players would view as limitations.
Jim, it sounds like you might be a candidate for a vintage non-pedal steel guitar!
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:47 pm
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| Of course, these terms are highly subjective, but some of the older recordings sound "fatter" to me than ones that are not as old. For example, I don't know what guitar and amp Jimmy Day was using on the Golden Steel Guitar Hits album, or the Steel and Strings album, but his sound there sounds "fatter" to me than anything one can get using modern steels and amps. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 8:51 pm
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| Quote: |
| One major difference is the pickups are wound to much lower resistance/inductance... |
Exactly! I have measured the DC resistance of many lap steel pickups, pedal steel guitar pickups, and various non-pedal steel guitar pickups over the past several years... (instruments that I have owned, bought, sold) and the resistance of most 1940s, 50s, and 60s lap steel pickups is roughly between 5K Ohms and 9K Ohms (much like regular electric guitars). Pickups for today's Pedal Steel Guitars are about 16K Ohms to 23K Ohms. In general, the greater the resistance, the more Lows are produced.
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 9:07 pm
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Yup. What Doug and Scott said.
Many less windings.
Danny Shields wound me a real clear pickup that he said was "more like Bigsbys". I dunno. he died, and I wore the pickup out.
My latest ones are 16k Stock JW wire size that he uses on the TrueTones what are typically 22k+.
Also a tube amp with slight overdrive and accented highs.
A "plate" type or sounding reverb can certainly help get the "old record sound".
Maybe playing it through a huge window fan...
EJL |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 10 Mar 2008 9:30 pm
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Brint, I agree with you about Jimmy Day's 'Steel and Strings' album. That was recorded in the 1960's and it sounds very full. The era that Jim is referring to in his original post is 1950s... pre-pedal steel. Those earlier non-pedal steels had a certain tone that is not available in a modern pedal steel guitar. Many early PSGs do have a 50's tone... like the first Fender PSGs c. 1958, and the early Sho-Buds. As the years went on, the pedal steel tones got 'bass-ier', fuller, more sustain, in my opinion. Primarily due to the pickups (the windings) and the body construction, etc.
Example: For many years I played "Sleep Walk" on pedal steel guitar... trying to recreate Santo's tone from 1959, to no avail. A couple of years ago I tried it on a vintage 1957 lap steel... and I found the thin, stark tone I was looking for! That sound is not in any pedal steel guitar made in the past 40+ years, in my opinion. Check out my Sleep Walk link below (a shameless plug, I know)
So in answer to the question "What's the best way to obtain the tone of early steel?" ...buy an early steel!
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Antolina
From:
Dunkirk NY
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 1:17 am
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So in answer to the question "What's the best way to obtain the tone of early steel?" ...buy an early steel!
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The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 1:38 am Strange, but true
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| I just posted on Sw/oP about the full old tubey sound I get from the original Bose Acoustic Wave units. |
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William Fraser
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 2:12 am that good ol' tone
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Play the oldest sho-bud ,or ZB you can stand ,a volume pedal ,& an old Fender twin or Super ,you will at least get the "shimmer" .I would reccomend NOT using all 4 or six Knee levers ,as these changes came later, you will need to move the bar more! & try using the C6 neck if you have one. I prefer the tone from the 60's & 70's & prefer my peavey amp , but I hang on to my Super Reverb for the variety of tone, my 73 Sho-Bud Has coil taps & I can always find somthing useful. LISTEN to the early recordings , you can hear a lot of A & B pedal , the C pedal wasn't as common. Try playing with just your A pedal , you'll like it. This is one mans opinion. Bill 
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Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc. |
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Eric Stumpf
From:
Newbury, NH 03255
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 4:18 am
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| Three other important components that make up that "old-time" sound: the particular tuning of the guitar, the player's style and the audio recording equipment used to capture the performance. For example: an A major tuning used on an Epiphone Electar Model M played with trombone-like phasing through a 1935 Volu-tone amp pushed to the edge of distortion while being recorded by a vintage RCA ribbon mike into a tube-driven Western Electric console in a Houston hotel room on a humid 95 degree day in 1937 is not a tone that's going to be replicated today. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 5:59 am
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| Eric Stumpf wrote: |
| Three other important components that make up that "old-time" sound: the particular tuning of the guitar, the player's style and the audio recording equipment used to capture the performance. For example: an A major tuning used on an Epiphone Electar Model M played with trombone-like phasing through a 1935 Volu-tone amp pushed to the edge of distortion while being recorded by a vintage RCA ribbon mike into a tube-driven Western Electric console in a Houston hotel room on a humid 95 degree day in 1937 is not a tone that's going to be replicated today. |
100% correct!!
The recording gear and the mastering and the equipment used in the chain from start to finish plays a bigger roll in the sound than the original guitar and amp used. You don't have that coloring of the sound now. All this digital stuff gives you back much less than you put in if you don't color the sound to begin with. In the old days the recording gear made you sound better than your source sound. If you have never sat in a recording studio in the 60s with everyone there at one time, singers and musicians and using no headphones played the song down and recorded it and then had the extreme pleasure of listening to the playback through a set of Altec A7 cabs with all the verb and compressions and such added by the engineer that you never heard while recording, then you really don't have an idea as to how the recording process in the 30-60s determined what the sound of the artist was.
Now a days the recordings sound so atrocious with drums and low end so loud and singers yelling at you with no reverb so they can be heard and CD levels pushed up to "stun", THAT is why you enjoy the sounds of these older recordings and what makes the individual tones in them special. |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 6:42 am
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Brint, If memory serves me right Jimmy played a Fender 1000 on those albums. Also the split coils on the old Sho-Buds was because many of the players getting them were coming from that Fender sound. My coils split at about 10ohms and I can get close.
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2013 Williams D-10, 2019 Williams D-10, 1970 Fender Twin, Evans SE200, Fender Tonemaster Twin, Hilton pedal, Jagwire Strings. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 6:46 am
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This will get you into the early Earnest Tub/Buddy Charleton tone, with an old tube amp like a Fender or Standel. Go conservative on the reverb, if any. This may still be not as far back as you are refering to, though.
 ering to, though.
Last edited by James Morehead on 11 Mar 2008 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Charley Wilder
From:
Dover, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 6:48 am
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Great thread! I love the old non-pedal sound. The best I can do with my 60's D8 is through my old VibroChamp. I have tried to get that tone through my Blues Jr. and can't. It the same with my lap steels. The VibroChamp sounds much better than the Jr. The Champ is too small for the stage, but for basement jams it's fine. In the 60's I achieved my best D8 sound with a small Ampeg with Reverb. (Model?) I agree with Bill. Recording technique and conditions would certainly have a lot to do with the old sound. Life is fun. Back then most players were trying everything they could to get the latest "new" sound, and now...............  |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 8:16 am
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I think it's all been touched on above:
1. Low impedance pickup (you could put one of these on a modern pedal steel and get real close to the vintage tone)
2. Low or medium power tube amp with some grit and tube bloom (I don't think you can get it with a silver-face Twin)
3. A vintage type mic
4. Vintage recording equipment (some modern analog tube preamps and reverbs can get close)
5. Vintage type of instrumentation (bass far in background, maybe a string bass, no drums)
6. Vintage style arrangements - sparse instrumentation, and the backup players back way off or quit entirely, so the solo instruments can really be heard
7. Vintage type of mix - steel is up in the mix throughout, and solo instruments are kept way up in the mix; not the modern wall of sound with all instruments competing within a very narrow dynamics range. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 8:35 am
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Good list, David! But you left out the player?
Sound begins in the hands!
So, I would only add #8 - "A player who appreciates simplicity and musicality over a bunch of "totally cool" (moving) pedal changes and combinations.
You can't make modern changes sound like vintage talent!!!  |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 8:52 am Oooohh! I must be mistaken...........
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I tho't JERRY BYRD's performances on the early Hank Williams records.........."I'm So Lonesome I could Cry"........displayed some REALLY, REally, FAT TONEs....all coming from that olde Rick Bakelite and Volu-Tone amp with the small speaker and five to seven tubs. This was in the late 1940's to early 1950's. I could be wrong.
During the same era, not at MGM studios but at KING, his work with the York Brothers had phenominal FAT TONE.....on tunes like "TREMBLIN'" and "Fuedin' Boogie", as did his work with Clyde Moody on "TOO YOUNG" and many others.
Much of JERRY's work is over-looked, possibly because some of you enthusiastic players are simply too young...but that's not to be held against you. Just pointing out a possible explanation for a glaringly obvious oversight.
I can get really great, similar tone from my EMMONS push-pull using my Session 400 & LA 400 thro' my ProFex. Just my experience. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 1:33 pm
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| I thought I read the other day, here on the Forum, that Day used a Shobud D-8 or D-9 for the record. Modern strings one and two not on it, and no high G#. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 2:09 pm Classic sound
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| Solution Buy My 1972 D 10 Black Emmons Push Pull . |
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Gabriel Stutz
From:
Chicago, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2008 8:27 pm
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As I recall, Ricky Davis posted about this at some point and suggested (on a D10) putting the neck selector switch to the middle position to get a somewhat thinner sound. He also suggested throwing a towel over the unused neck to avoid string noise. I've tried this a couple of times and it is definitely a step in the right direction, but probably about as close as you can get on a modern steel.
GPS |
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