Switching a U12 to an Ext. E9 '?'

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm seriously looking for an Extended E9, and I'm wondering whether such a switch is a viable proposition.

There have been any number of used U12s on the Forum, but not so many Ext E9s. (I passed on a couple, because I doubted their resale potential.)

Am I missing a good opportunity with a U12, or is the different set-up just too complicated to consider (re: the number of available 'pulls' on the various pedals/knee-levers)?

At this point, I may still just settle for a new guitar (a Williams or a Fessenden), but I'd appreciate your thoughts on the U-12/Ext E9 question.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

If you are interested in a relatively simple Ext. E9 setup then you will be carrying around a lot more pedals than you need after the conversion. The conversion itself would take somebody who knew their stuff around an all-pull guitar no more than 2-3 hours, I'd say. Really not a big deal. If you are into a lot of changes then you'd have a real deluxe Ext. E9 rig. But if you are looking for lean/mean then you'd be better off waiting for a 3 + 5 or 4 + 5 12 string to come along.
(I have never actually removed a whole pedal from a pedal rack so in my mind it is a big deal to reduce the number of pedals on a steel. Could be that it's no big deal at all in which case my suggestion to wait is meaningless. Plus, you could sell off those 3 or 4 pedals and do well.)

David Doggett · Posted 23 Feb 2008 1:47 pm

I think you should be patient and wait for a used Ext. E9 (put up a notice in Buy and Sell saying you're looking for one), and meantime save up for a new one. Either way you will eventually end up with exactly what you want. It would be a lot of extra weight if you leave all the pedals on, and also extra set up time for nothing. And suppose you removed the pedals and unused undercarriage stuff - who's going to want that except someone with an Ext. E9 who is converting to an S12U? If you find such a person, it would be better for the two of you to just swap. But until you find that person, you're stuck with an unwanted universal. It just seems like a lot of extra cost and trouble to do a conversion. On the other hand, you might try a uni and like it.

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I tried to play E9/B6 on a Sierra Session and just could not adjust to the "no D string" issue and my current MSA SD-12 Legend was ordered and set up as Ext-E9th with 5/5 and it's perfect for my style and the music I play. IMHO if you found a good deal on a UNI guitar that you connected with, changing it to Ext-E9 would be as perviously mention a 2-3 hour job and you could sell the unused parts to recoop some of your purchase price.
JE:-).

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · From: Ayrshire, Scotland

A U-12 is also an extended E9. You have the `most used` of both worlds with less weight and cost of a D-10. The loss of the D string I found easy enough to get over. Having never played a D-10, I find it relatively easy to get the back neck(B6). You have similar fret positions to E9, but with different pedal useage. I count the strings down 1-9 for basic E9 and 10-1 for B6. It makes life easier.

Arch.
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, guys, but - before someone else tells me that I 'don't need that 'D' string', I have to reiterate that I'm not asking here what tuning I should adopt - that's already decided.

I will never have a steel without the 'D' in that position - it's what makes E9 such a great tuning, in my very thoroughly-considered opinion - and the private e-mails I've received telling me that I should 'think again' and go with the 'universal' herd are falling on stony ground.

My question was in regard to a purely mechanical issue - is switching a U12 to an Extended E9 a practical choice? It seems that it probably isn't, especially if I'd need to buy accessories (rods, bell-cranks, etc) to achieve the set-up I want; it wouldn't, perhaps, be cost-effective.

Thanks to those that have responded to the question that I asked.

RR

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

I don't follow your reasoning, Roger---converting from U-12 to Ext.E9 would be a stripping down process----there are far more changes on a Uni than you would likely be using on the Ext so you would have a surplus of parts. As I and several others have said, the most practical thing is to get a guitar that is configured how you want it. But converting a U to an Ext is far simpler than vice versa and would require no additional parts.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Yes, Jon, but a surplus of rods is only any use if they can be used on the pedals and knees that I need the pulls on.

For example - I'd want all three G#s raising to A, all three Es going up to F; if I don't have enough rods for that particular pedal or 'knee', then a surplus rod from elsewhere won't help - it'd be the wrong length. (Once, when I tried to shorten an Emmons rod, I got in terrible trouble and it didn't work!!!)

Maybe there would be enough bell-cranks, though....

I think I'd need five pedals and maybe six 'knees, although I'm not quite done figuring all of it out; I'm sure I could come up with a couple of 'occasional' pulls for those extra two pedals.

RR

PS: I'd also have to factor in that I'd be paying someone to do this - if I tried, it'd be a disaster!

David Doggett · Posted 23 Feb 2008 8:26 pm

Okay, now that I see what you want in an Ext. E9, and that you will have someone else do the work, I would say what you have in mind is not a bad idea. Look for a used uni that is a brand and model you want. Most of them are at least 6 & 5. So you will just have to get one knee lever added (I don't know where you want that sixth one). Many unis have a center cluster of knee levers for B6. You might be able to move one of those to where you want it for your Ext. E9. You will have to remove only 1-3 pedals - no big deal for anyone who works on pedal steels. You will have more than enough bell cranks. But you are right, you may not have enough pull rods of the right length. But even many Ext. E9s don't have the pulls you want on strings 11 and 12. Unless you buy something really vintage, you shouldn't have trouble finding the two or three new pull rods you will need, and if not, there are people who could make them from scratch for you.

So it sounds like you could just buy the uni, turn it over to whoever is going to do the work for you and tell them what you want. It sounds like it would be a days work for them, or less. If you want a 0 pedal to the left of the A pedal, and the uni you get has the A pedal in the left-most position, then all the pedals will have to be moved over one position. That will pretty much require a complete disassembly and re-rodding of the undercarriage. If the A pedal is already in the 2nd position, then it only requires re-rodding the lowest three strings, to give you back the D string and move the low G# and E to strings 11 and 12. And some of the knee levers rodding may have to be changed. But even the worst case is probably only a days work for someone who is experienced. If you are lucky, you might find a used uni with some dealer like Bobbe Seymour, who could easily make the required changes.

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Albert Johnson Leon Roberts in Tallshassee for repairs, Ken Fox did my Carter, he has done others MSA etc.

ernie

Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

I converted an ext. E9 Williams to U-12 myself. If I can do it , anybody can.
Still, if I were you , I`d have Bill Rudolph make you a guitar that will fit like a glove. For a fair price...
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Olli Haavisto
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Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I must say that I'm leaning towards the 'new guitar' notion. The Williams looks absolutely beautiful, and Bill has been in touch regarding a steel built to my requirements.

I still haven't finalised my set-up, but I continue to ponder a fifth pedal. It's a big step, and I'm understandably nervous about losing the familiar feel of all my ten-string grips, but, even though I'm getting a bit old for such a change, the prospect of an E9 with decent bottom-end range is a very exciting one.

Thanks for all your input.

RR

Drew Howard · From: 48854

Roger,

I went the ext. E9 route for a couple of years and then pursued C6 more seriously. Had a beautiful Fessy with a Truetone that sounded fantastic. In the end the 12 strings were too many for me. But that's me. Good luck in your musical pursuits.

Drew

Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

I might add that I had a Zum S-12 7/5 that was Uni when I got it to use during the time I was waiting for my MSA to be built and I had Jim Palenscar switch it over to my 5/5 Ext-E9th set up and it did not require any new parts to make the swap. In fact I had 3 or 4 pull rods left over.
To answer the question before it's ask, "why didn't I keep the Zum" - It was a fine sounding and playing guitar, but I just never connected with it. Smile

JE:-)>
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Duncan Hodge · From: DeLand, FL USA

Roger, you can come over and try out my Fulawka S-12 and see if it fits your grips. The feel is very similar to a 10 string and I use the same bar on both.
Duncan
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Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Roger, about 4 or 5 years ago I switched my U-12 to what you might call an extended E9 Uni. I added the 9th string back in but tuned it to C#. What you could do is tune yours to extended E9 and then add another pull on you "E" lever which would lower your 9th string D to C#. This way you could go ahead and keep you B6th pedals (with a couple of minor changes) and still be able to do the swing thing! If you'd like to see my setup I'd be glad to email it to you.......JH in Va.
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Olli Haavisto · From: Jarvenpaa,Finland

Before I went standard (?) Universal I did what Jerry describes and that is an excellent solution, I´d almost forgotten about it! Loads of swing stuff available with E9th pedals and levers, too.
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Gary Cosden · From: Florida, USA

Hi Roger
I recently (3 months ago) bought a used Sierra S12 Uni from a forum member and did my own conversion to extended E9. I too was a long time 10 string guy and I can honestly say I have no regrets. Re-learning the grips is an an issue but I feel pretty good about it now. If you do decide to go this route you could always call me if you get stuck as I am just up the road in Cape Coral. I wound up with 5 pedals and 5 KL with a franklin in first position (new pedal and position for me). I had (have) a lot to relearn but now I'm comfortable and playing every day. Pedal Steel playing has and always will be a work in progress. Just be sure to record the copedant and the position of all the rods in the changer and bell cranks before you start and worst case you can always put it back to the way it was.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Thanks, Jerry - and yes, please send me your set-up. I need to think about what the consequences of lowering the low 'D' along with the 'E's would be (my steel is now set up in a theatre so I can't get at it to investigate until tonight), but it sounds interesting!

That low 'D' string is the only reason I won't consider a full universal tuning. I love the idea of what the B6 side of things would give me, though, and if there's a way to get it without losing my precious 'D' 9th, I'd be 'over the moon', as the footballers used to say in the Old Country.

Just to recap, here's my S-12 reasoning.....

I love E9 and C6, but am far more 'at home' on E9. E9, though, needs more low-end to be a complete tuning (in my opinion, I hasten to add!), and, short of getting a D-12 (NOT an option - a D-10 is heavy enough!), a single-12 E9 is the option I'm left with. C6th is already more-than low enough.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement from all....
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Stan Paxton · Posted 25 Feb 2008 10:29 am

Hi Roger, Last year I converted a Univ 12 to Ext E9, so it isn't that difficult. With my brand, they are easy to work on, I took off the extra foot pedals, no problem. I am sending you an e-mail, let me know if you get it. Regards, Stan Cool

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Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Roger-

I played Jim Palenscar's 12 last Friday, and he has just changed to this tuning (invented by Emmons he says):

1...F#
2...D#
3...G#
4...E
5...B
6...G#
7...F#
8...E
9...D
10.B
11.E
12.B

With his E lowering lever, he also lowers 9 and 10, so the lower part looks like this:

8...D#
9...B
10.G#
11.E
12.B

Bobby Bowman · From: Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.

Roger,
Email me your phone number at bobbybow@swbell.net or call me at 281-856-9453. I may have just the guitar you're looking for here in my shop. It belongs to Russ Rickman, it is a pristene SD-12 Carter "custom shoppe" guitar with "BCT" technology. Natural blond with abolonie (sp?) inlay, currently with 5 floor pedals and 7 knee levers. For the "custom" guitar it is, the price is very reasonable in my opinion. I don't have a way to post pictures, but believe me,,,,it is an extermly fine and nice guitar.
BB
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Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Bobby we want to see this Pristine Natural Blond
SD-12 Carter. Cool

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Hi, Bobby

I've sent a couple of e-mails - can you check your inbox?
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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