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Topic: Black Plastic - getting expensive |
Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2008 10:16 am |
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This auction just ended:
Link to auction on eBay.
$1525 ????
Think I should sell mine? I have the exact same model in MINT condition. Should I take the money buy a SuperSlide? (Bakelite tuning issues will be a thing of the past). I am going to Dallas in few weeks and will definitely check them out.
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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Derrick Mau
From:
Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2008 11:51 am
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| Quote: |
| Should I take the money and buy a Super Slide? |
You'll be sorry later. Keep the bakelite. |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2008 12:08 pm
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I'm thinking of contacting the auction winner to see if he is interested in buying my vintage lap steel stand for $700.
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Bob Stone
From:
Gainesville, FL, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2008 2:38 pm
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Gerald,
As a fellow Bakelite player, I will be interested to hear your opinion on the Super Slides.
Best,
Bob |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 21 Feb 2008 3:21 pm
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You can do what you wish, but the bakelite will be worth even more in years to come, and the new one you mentioned will be just another used guitar, (not to say it isn't a good instrument)
You can sell the bakelite when your grandchildren need college tuition  |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 21 Feb 2008 6:47 pm
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They aren't making Bakelite anymore.
I expect values to continue to rise. |
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Jude Reinhardt
From:
Weaverville, NC
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 5:53 am
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| Joey Ace wrote: |
They aren't making Bakelite anymore.
I expect values to continue to rise. |
Why aren't they making Bakelite anymore? Is it a patent issue? I keep looking for a Chinese bakelite priced to compete with the Artisan. Not!
Jude
_________________
"If we live in fear of banjos, then the banjos have won".
"Man cannot live by bread alone, he must have Peanut Butter". - Kruger Bear |
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Rick Alexander
From:
Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 6:03 am
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| Quote: |
| Think I should sell mine? |
Absolutely not. You'll regret it if you do . .
_________________
BIG STEEL |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 8:13 am
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Perhaps everyone should have both a Bakelite and a SuperSlide, wouldn't that be a wonderful world?
Might have been here on the Forum, dobro legend, and fine lap and pedal steeler Mike Auldridge alluded to the dreaded tuning issues with the bakelite in recording the "Sliding Home" CD with John Starling and Carolina Star.
He used a bakelite on the recording, but had to fight the tuning thing.
Because of the precision modern engineering, he said that he has no problem keeping the SuperSlide in tune.
Maybe the stock pickup for the SuperSlide isn't exactly the right thing?
Or is is the bakelite mojo aspect? It seems hard to imagine a guitar made out of plastic to be a cool mojo item, compared to, for example some old classic wooden guitar, like a 1930's Martin.
_________________
Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 22 Feb 2008 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 8:22 am
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I actually played and liked the SuperSlide when I was in Dallas last March. I thought it had a very big, fat tone and felt good under the bar and my fingers.
The things I didn't like about the Superslide where:
1. The fingerboard double-parelelogram inlays/markers.
2. The word SUPERSLIDE in size 575 font on the pickup.
3. The MSA logo on the front facing the audience.
4. The Headstock for the six string looks a bit funny. I know it's modular and you can add strings at anytime, but if you only want six strings it looks a bit unbalanced.
Now all that being said... MSA can customize as much as you'd like. Here is an example of a Superslide that I find very visually appealing. This addresses many of my issues:
_________________
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
A UkeTone Recording Artist
CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Hawaiian Steel Guitar/Ukulele Website |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 8:32 am
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The owner of the custom in the above photo (if memory serves, I'm pretty sure it was him - but it's been a couple years - could be wrong - may have been one just like it) brought the guitar for "show and tell" to a Rob Ickes dobro workshop we had in the Bay Area.
So the little aesthetic things that may not appeal to a person can be easily altered by ordering the instrument as a custom.
If I had a nice bakelite, I'm sure I'd hang on to it - but I wonder how many folks have even heard or played a SuperSlide for the sake of comparison?
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Mark |
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Isaac Stanford
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 5:40 pm
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I just got a SuperSlide a couple weeks ago and I think it's great. I ordered it with the pearl fret markers and the only MSA logo is a small one engraved in the headstock. Here are a few pictures.
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 6:31 pm
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Wow, Issac, that is really a classy look on that SuperSlide.
If I can ever get "money ahead" again (kids in college, etc.), I'm going to order one and you have stirred up the old instrument lust - no guitar player, steel or otherwise, can ever be completely cured of G.A.S.! 
_________________
Mark |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 6:56 pm
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They are beautiful instruments alright. I have a few wood steels, but even with the tuning issues, it's pretty hard to beat aluminum and bakelite for a desirable tone.
My old New Yorker sits in the closet for months at a time, and just stays in tune. Weird.
Modern instruments seem to be easier to play. Must be string spacing at both ends etc. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 7:08 pm
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Notice that the high bidder in that auction is in Japan, he has "0 feedback", and is a new eBay member within the past 30 days. The seller had specified USA only. I wonder if the seller ever got paid? 
A couple of times in past years, overseas newbies have run up my auctions sky high and did not pay. The last time that happened I refused to sell to the guy, and I sold to the next highest bidder. eBay suggested that I do that. eBay said I did not have to sell to the foreign buyer because I had specified USA only.
As far as selling a Bakelite to buy something new... no way, unless you are not happy with the Bakelite. I'll take a quality vintage instrument over a new one any day. I have never owned a steel guitar newer than 1976. That includes pedal steels And lap steels. 
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel
Last edited by Doug Beaumier on 22 Feb 2008 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gary Boyett
From:
Colorado
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 7:09 pm
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The SuperSlides are really nice but too expensive for my blood. 
When you really look into it you can get a really nice vintage steel or a great pedal steel for less. (not that I would actually do THAT) 
I hope the best for them but I will gladly hang out in the back with the old stuff... 
smiley mood tonight...  |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 22 Feb 2008 11:53 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
I'll take a quality vintage instrument over a new one any day. I have never owned a steel guitar newer than 1976. That includes pedal steels And lap steels. |
I don't know Doug - that sounds a little bit like too much of a hard and fast rule, not a hill I'd want to die on.
The term "vintage" apparently means different things to different people. Over on the Jerry Douglas Forum, there was a discussion about "vintage" dobros. One fellow was referring to his 1970's OMI Dobro as "vintage." In the world of Dobros that isn't even close. I have a circa 1930 Dobro that I've owned since the mid 70's. Now that's vintage.
It's a sweet sounding old Dobro, but it it can't hold a candle to my 2004 custom-built Clinesmith. And as far as the big pro players, there isn't a one of them that plays old Dobro brand dobros anymore as the instrument that puts food on their table and keeps a roof over there head. They are for the most part playing instruments built in the last ten years, and they aren't Gibson/Dobro.
And where is the cutoff for steel guitars that qualify as "vintage?" To somebody else, it might be guitars from 1985 or earlier. Or maybe even 1990 or earlier.
Is there some arbitrary date out there? Apparently not.
There are some great modern lap steels out there, and obviously a plethora of outstanding contemporary pedal steels.
And if I have a hankering for a well-preserved Rick Bakelite, and the going rate is $1500, count me out!
It's the same thing with amps. I can appreciate an early 60's Fender tube amp just fine, but if it's going to cost an arm and a leg compared to a 2008 model, I know I can't justify the price difference. The new ones still sound pretty good. I was at a Guitar Center a couple years ago, and they in fact had a Rick Bakelite from the 1940's, and I plugged it into a Fender tube amp, the model escapes me right now, and it sounded great, and if for some reason they had a SuperSlide there, I'm sure it would have sounded great through the new Fender amp as well.
_________________
Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 23 Feb 2008 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 23 Feb 2008 12:02 am
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I prefer the look and feel of the old stuff too- but when I could get 2 used Sierra 8 stringers for the cost of one 6 string bakelite, there's no contest. I can appreciate the age and the cool factor, but not when it comes with that price tag.
FWIW I think the guys that pay $20k for an old telecaster are sick. Seriously, clinically sick.
I'm kinda sick too in my own way so don't take that personally. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 23 Feb 2008 1:15 am
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Mark, I agree with you about the dobros. The 1930s ones do not have the big fat tone of the new high-end resos as far as I can tell, although I am not an acoustic player or an expert in dobros. I was referring more to lap steels. For some reason I have always been attracted to old lap steels, old guitars and pedal steels, and I have very little interest in new instruments. There is a certain sound, a certain tone, in 1950's lap steels that I don't hear in the newer ones that I have played. The volume and tone controls feel different, the guitars look different, and feel different. It's true that some of the new lap steels have hotter pickups and a fatter sound, but that's part of the problem in my opinion. Vintage tone is a thinner tone, and it's a sound I really like.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 23 Feb 2008 8:17 am
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And that's a great explanation, Doug, thanks.
Different strokes for different folks.
At the San Jose Steel Guitar jam a couple years ago, some of us were talking about which guitars sounded the best. Of course there were mostly pedal steels. But there were a couple well-preserved Rick Bakelites there as well. The gist of the discussion was that the best sounding guitars in the room were those Ricks. In the Greg Leisz interview in Andy Volk's Lap Steel Guitar book Greg makes a comment to the effect that he wished pedal steels, tone wise, sounded more like lap steels.
I have to say if presented a choice between a bakelite in good condition and Issac's new SuperSlide, the guitar lust part of my brain would go for the SuperSlide.
Now here's a thought: carbon fiber is the new darling of the design world. As a moldable plastic material it is utilized in everything from Tour De France worth racing bikes, to America's Cup yacht hulls, to aircraft parts, and to stringed instruments.
And it is an elaborate take on the word "plastic." MSA already produces a carbon fiber pedal steel, can a SuperSlide, or a hollow bodied lap steel from another manufacturer, as sort of a 21st century version of a Rick be far behind?
_________________
Mark |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2008 11:00 am
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It's hard to beat old "plastic"!
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 23 Feb 2008 6:11 pm
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| I'm with you Erv |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 23 Feb 2008 8:40 pm
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Bakelite (or AG-4 phenolic resin) is a material based on the thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin, polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride developed in 1907–1909 by Belgian-American Dr. Leo Baekeland. Formed by the reaction under heat and pressure of phenol (a toxic, colourless crystalline solid) and formaldehyde (a simple organic compound), generally with a wood flour filler, it was the first plastic made from synthetic components. It was used for its electrically nonconductive and heat-resistant properties in radio and telephone casings and electrical insulators, and was also used in such diverse products as kitchenware, jewelery, pipe stems, and children's toys. In 1993 Bakelite was designated an ACS National Historical Chemical Landmark in recognition of its significance as the world's first synthetic plastic.[1]
The retro appeal of old Bakelite products and labor intensive manufacturing has made them quite collectable in recent years.
The name Bakelite was originally a brand, trademark name, but it is currently considered a generic term for all phenolic resin products, though some phenolic products besides Bakelite are brand-named.
Bakelite Corp. was formed in 1922 from the consolidation of three companies. General Bakelite Co., Condensite Corp. and Redmanol Chemical Products Company, an early plastics manufacturer formed in 1913 by Lawrence V. Redman. The American Catalin Corporation acquired the Bakelite formulas in 1927 and currently manufactures Bakelite cast resins.
Bakelite Limited was formed in 1926 from the amalgamation of three suppliers of phenol formaldehyde materials: the Damard Lacquer Company Limited of Birmingham; Mouldensite Limited of Darley Dale and Redmanol Chemical Products Company of London. Around 1928 a new factory opened in Tyseley, Birmingham. (The building was demolished in 1998.) The company was acquired by the Union Carbide and Carbon Corporation in 1939
Bakelite Ltd. were a big employer in my home town, Birmingham, England, and I had several friends working there. Their products went all round the world.
I think the reason Bakelite isn't used much nowadays is that it was the first commercial plastic, and very little was known about its longevity in the early years. It was believed that it would last for ever, but if you left it out in the sun it would warp, and then crystalize as the formaldehide leaked out. Formaldehide isn't something you would want leaking round your kitchen. In recent years much better plastics have been invented.
Yes, you could make lap steels out of Bakelite nowadays, but there are better plastics to use that would look the same. I'm sure if they can make jet aircraft out of plastic that's 20 times the strength of steel they could come up with a plastic that would have excellent tone properties. It would take an investment in research that would have to be passed on to the customer, though. Many regular solid electric guitars have been made out of graphite resins in recent years, so maybe that's the way to go. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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