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Topic: Bakelite repair |
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 8:06 am |
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| I need to repair an old Rick- anyone have any links or information about repairing bakelite (other than "Good luck" or "No way")? |
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Dave Bader
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Dave Bader
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 8:27 am
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| Thanks Dave |
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norm mcdaniel
From:
waco tx
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 9:17 am Old Bakelite Repair
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Jim Ole Pardner--I dont know the first thing about fixing that stuff, But I just wanted to say A Great Big Hello To You and hope to see ya in The Big Dallas show. I understand You will have your own set!!!!!(just kiddin)
Bud Is really Down right now as far as any one will let me know. I think he is still in the Timple VA hospital. He says he is getting better but he dont sound like it. Im not entirely sure if he has pneumonia and heart problems or not
Your Ole Bud in Waco(keep busy)
Norm |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 9:40 am Can you describe the break?
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I've successfully repaired several but it depends on the break.
In some cases it's a lot simpler than one might expect.
DON'T USE GLUE!!!! I've seen some real engineering catastrophes that weren't essential in the first place.
Would you care to talk about it? |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 9:52 am
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Bakelite starts off as a liquid and then when it hardens, it can never return to a liquid again, so you can't melt it or use any heat to try to get it to rebond. The pretty surface that you see is the resin hardening at the top and that layer is pretty thin. Once you cut through the nice shiny surface with over polishing or damage of any kind you are down into the plastic that is just filler material mixed with resins. It has a rough grainy texture.
You are dealing with a broken guitar. Depending on where the break is and how much tension is on that area will depend on how you approach the repair. A body crack would not be as critical as a neck crack.
I used to use some aircraft grade epoxy in doing luthier repair. Strong as heck! I would investigate that and consider some structural reinforcement of the crack if possible, maybe some hidden metal pins or something.
Superglue will not work well with bakelite from what I understand. Good luck. |
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John Bushouse
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 11:19 am
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I have a cracked fretboard on my 1936 National that I've been debating how to fix. The part of the fingerboard/top that has the crack is removable from the body, so I don't have to worry about damage to the guitar.
So, Ray, how would you go about fixing something like this? It's a clean break - the piece is very thin and snapped in half. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 2:43 pm Hi there!
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My suggestion would only have worked on a large, solid body section; like a neck or main body piece.
SORRY........ |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 7:25 pm
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I fixed mine (neck broke off)with west system epoxy. It's NOT the way to go. There is some "stuff" used to set guns into the wood stock so that the metal parts don't move around in the wood stock. Can't think of the name of the stuff right now, but I have some around here someplace, and I'll look if you want. A gentleman, in Texas I believe, by the name of Tanner(?) recommeded the stuff. Someone else here with a better memory will likely know him.
What kind of a break is it?? |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 7:37 pm
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OK, I just found the stuff , and it's from Brownell's. Look up www.brownells.com The stuff is called Acraglas. It comes with black and brown dye to mix in to color it.
Good luck
BILL |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 8:09 pm Tanner?
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| Bill, Wayne Tanner is the old school bakelite guru who can answer all your questions about bakelites, was VERY good friends with Jerry Byrd and Speedy West, is a very good friend of Ray's, and is a member of this forum, but doubtful he's checked in for a while. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2008 10:59 pm
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| I attempted to find contact information for Wayne Tanner but was unable to. The Acraglass looks promising however the crack in this Rick is a fissure in the headstock and kinda scary so I want to do it only once))). Thanks for all the great information! |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 5:01 am
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If you are going with "Acraglas" ... don't get the green gel ... get the RED ...
That was Mr. Tanner's fix.
Another way to go is to use "Structural Acrylic" ... industrial adhesive like:
Loctite 330 ...
Its Technical Data
It's unbelievably strong ... but expensive ... sets firm in minutes ...
Good for all materials ... excellent on porous materials.
I used it to seat Terry V.'s brass nut to his Bronson bakelite ...
I'm also using it on my new pickups ... because the West System epoxy I tried ... just couldn't deal with the massive repulsions being generated ...
The components literally "blew apart" when I removed them from the containing vises.
One piece of steel shot out with such force ... it dented our new dryer ...
And "Da Boss" wasn't happy   |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 8:36 am
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| I fixed one years ago that the neck had broken off right at the body. After glueing it back, don't remember what kind of glue, I drilled and tapped through the break from inside the hollow under the neck. I put in two 1/4" bolts that are invisible from the top., and it has held ever since. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 8:47 am
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That's how I fixed mine Clyde. I also have two threaded 5/16 dowel pins embedded in epoxy between the two halves. Likely stronger than original.
I wouldn't do it that way again though.
Jim, if that's the bakelite I saw on Ebay recently, it shouldn't be too bad a job to fix it. If you "wet-out" the whole surface in the break, and clamp it tight, it should be fine. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 9:34 am
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"If you "wet-out" the whole surface in the break, and clamp it tight"- sorry Bill- what does "wet-out" mean?
Rick- I know that Bronson had numerous manufacturers making their instruments and one version was from Rickenbacher- did the Bakelite Bronson have horseshoe pickups as well? |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 9:46 am
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Bill, one detail I forgot to mention is that the tenth fret had been partially destroyed. I fashioned one out of bondo and painted it. Like you, I would not go about it again in exactly the same way. I would ( and could now) use long 1/4"
allen set screws and run them in below the surface
and bondo and paint the holes. Another possible filler for the holes is a black plastic roof cement,
that I buy at a local hardware. Although it is gummy for a while, it does harden in about a year. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 10:53 am
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Clyde, Stewart-MacDonald has a two part epoxy that is black, which works good for fixing holes etc, but I wouldn't use it to glue anything. It takes about a week to get hard, but it does the job. It also shrinks a bit, so I leave enough above the surface to file & sand flush etc.
Jim, "wetting out" the surface means covering the joint surface all over, so there are no dry areas where the adhesive/glue will not bond. That's actually a term used by the Gougeon Brothers (West System Epoxies). They are referring to wood with that term, which allows the un-thickened glue to penetrate the surface of each piece, then the joint is covered with the thickened mix of epoxy.
You only need to be sure the joint is fully. covered. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 11:22 am
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Jim ... yep. I had to rewind it though ...
Here is some pictures of the whole redo ...
http://www.hsga.org/forum/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1199057744
That brown bakelite ... buffed up really well with a canton flannel wheel and some plastic rouge.
That brown ... really pretty stuff ... |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 12:00 pm
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| Were those brown Bronsons pre-war guitars?? Didn't think about it before, and just wondered. The brown is a classy looking guitar. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 12:50 pm How now brown da kine?
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I always liked the brown Bronson's look, and was quite happy one day in the sun to find my '48/9 Rick B8 is not black like most others, but is a dark brown and black with a butterflied swirl pattern thruout, from 'the pour'(?).
How common is that? It's the only one I've seen like it.
This guitar also recieved a complete and original war era Rick V/T wiring harness and (black, vs brown) bridge last week, and now sounds like a war era string-thru Ricky, with proper string spacing twixt the 1st & 2nd strings.
It's babysitter/Dr. Frankenstein will be making her sound pretty at the Waikiki Marriott tonite. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 12:59 pm
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| I just noticed that the pix that Rick A put on that the Bronson has a tail piece and small mags, so it must be post war. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 1:35 pm
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Yep ... all the ones I've seen are postwars.
Ron ... that one and all my Aces/Academys are that "brown swirl" ... very attractive indeed.
Makes me wonder why they put those "opaque" coats on the Aces/Academys (brown, white, blue and red).
I used one of my Academys for the "mother" of the very first sand casting I did.
The oiled sand peeled off some of the "opaque" brown layer in some spots ...
I took it to the wheel ... with a sewn cotton wheel and some jewelers rough ... and removed the rest of that opaque layer ...
Then buffed it out with a flannel cotton/plastic rouge ...
Prettiest one of the four ...
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2008 8:19 pm
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| Cool!! The brown really came out. Looks great Rick. |
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