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Topic: My first disaster with my ShoBud |
Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 9 Feb 2008 6:42 pm |
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My beautiful Pro 111 Custom that I've had for over 30 years let me down for the first time tonight at a gig. I went to screw in a leg only to find it wouldn't screw! The thread in the cast endplate had stripped. I had to play lead 6 string guitar all night. I guess I will have to find someone who can fit a helicoil in there if it's possible.
She has been used on literally thousands of gigs and sessions and never let me down before tonight. I am gutted.  |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:21 am Re: My first disaster with my ShoBud
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Ken, that's not bad in 30 years of playing to the extent you do. With my Sho-Bud, I snapped a teardrop knee lever after owning it same time as yours....30 years. I hasten to add it is not one of the "POT" metal Sho-Buds as you know. The plus side was I was just practising indoors and not gigging, plus I had a spare and was up and running in a few minutes. I can understand your situation with the leg and especially at a gig.With my Carter, one of the brass things that attach to a pull rod broke at a gig....the one that pulls the 3rd string.It was a Country festival. Fortunately we managed a repair in our break while another band was on, I found a metal coat hanger, cut a piece off and attached it to the pull road and I was back in business in minutes  I guess I had forgotten the periodical maintenance that steels need with the lubing of parts. I'm sure with all steels no matter how good they are, at some point they are gonna throw a sulk and piss the owner off 
Micky Byrne United Kingdom |
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Ron Mawn
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:36 am Sho-Bud Pro 111
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| Ken..Give me a call we'll sought something out. |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:42 am Re: Sho-Bud Pro 111
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Ron, great you've come up to help. It must be tragic when that happens.....especially at a gig 
Micky Byrne United Kingdom |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:44 am
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What size is the thread on the Shobud ?
If it's 1/2" it might be possible to tap out the casting to the metric size M14 or M16, and have a new threaded insert made for the leg.
That might sound scary, but it's not a big job at all, just routine at most engineering shops.
If there is enough 'meat' on the endplate casting, M16 would be the easiest, as that is what is known in the engineering world as a 'preferred size', and any engineering shop will have M16 taps. |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 4:37 am
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| Richard - it is a standard ½" with 13 TPI. There is not a huge amount of 'meat' around the socket and I would prefer to keep the thread size the same as the others if possible. I have a couple of friends who have given me advice, and I will be having a chat with a local engineer tomorrow. I am not sure about the longevity of helicoils as I have not had any dealings with them in the past. |
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John Roche
From:
England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 5:31 am
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| Ken, would it be possible to get a replacement end plate , which end has the screw gone?.. |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 8:21 am
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John - it's the changer end plate unfortunately. I don't know if these are relatively easy to come by or not.
I have only recently sold my ShoBud LDG, which wasn't good timing and my Pro 2 D12 is currently waiting for replacement parts from John Coop. Ron Mawn has been working his magic on it, but I have some important gigs coming up next week and I am not sure it would be a good idea to play 12 strings live on both necks when I have not got used it yet. Ron, bless him, offered the use of his Fessenden while mine is out of action. There are some good guys around.
I am waiting for a call back from a local player/builder who I have left a message with to contact me. |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 9:28 am Helicoil
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Ken,
Helicoils have a longer life than aluminum threads do, and if they are properly installed, will hold just as much load as the original threads, I use them every chance I can in aluminum parts with threaded holes. I think the repair to your guitar would be fairly simple |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 9:33 am
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| Course ya gotta find a 1/2" 13 helicoil in Southampton! |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 10:30 am
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| How are the threads on the leg? are they dinged or damaged from dropping? |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 10:50 am
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| The threads are almost new. I bought some stainless steel legs from the States, and the threads are fine. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 11:27 am
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I see you are in the UK. I have a helicoil set, the right drill, and a couple helicoils, and pretty exact instructions on just how to do it.
Shipping would be prohibitive or I'd loan it to you.
It's "ChrisLynn insert kit 82124".
Here's the instructions I came up with a few years ago when I did mine.
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Didn't get an email but I'll post the process I went through.
Chances are the threads wore imperfectly, so use the best "eyeball" you can when using the 7/32 drill. One shot, be careful and don't walk it around. Just In and Out.
Tapping is similar. Aluminum is a little tricky, but thread cutting oil and a careful hand will get you there.
Now. After threading you clean it with lighter fluid to get the oil out, blow it out and repeat with an air nozzle to get the loctite to seat on clean metal.
Dribble a small amount of green sleeve retainer Loctite™ down the new clean threads.
Screw the insert in flush with the end so there's no protrusion, break off the tang. If you use the green, DON'T stop til it's all the way in.
Then, before the Loctite dries completely put some type of antistick lube sparingly on the leg threads and work it in, screwing it in a turn, walking it around so that it loosens up the fit. If you don't it can easily be too tight. Walk it in and out a few times so it isn't too tight, take the leg out and let it dry.
You can use Red Loctite, as it's more forgiving, but the Green is like brazing. For that reason DON'T leave the leg screwed in while it dries.
Being a rear leg, it doesn't matter if it is a hair off where it was before. Mine wasn't, but like I said they don't have to wear concentrically.
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Mainly it's drilling it deliberately, tapping it turning it in and out, not hogging out too much, using loctite, and spreading the insert so it will turn.
It's a lot less trouble than you might think.
It's VERY possible that a small mom and pop machine shop would tackle it for you, but I'd be VERY careful of who you use.
If you were in Portland, you could drive over and it'd be done in an hour.
Good luck.
In the meantine, I simple got some window screen and cut a piece, wrapping the threads and kind of tucking it in, and got it to hold til I did the helicoil.
EJL |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 12:32 pm
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Thanks Eric - the information is much appreciated.
Hopefully I can get it done over here. If it had been the non-changer endplate, I might have been tempted to unbolt it from the body and bring it over to the States as I am coming over in March. I know you too used a Pro 111 for years, and I bought mine around 1975/6. It has been all around Europe and the UK, played on countless gigs and hundreds of sessions. This is the first problem that I've had with it in all that time, so I should not grumble. It just happened at a bad time.
Ken B. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 12:48 pm
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Well if you're in the Northwest, stop by.
Try a piece of screen, even a small one. You aren't hurting anything. The trouble of taking a plate off and all is more than if you can just find a place to borrow or buy a helicoil set, and a 1/2" drill motor.
It's not a big deal. Mainly working the leg around to get the helicoil to spread out.
My old ProIII I bought where I took lessons for 600$ in 76. I've got the same, more than two thousand gigs on it.
I'm just now thinking of swapping out the worn fingers, a couple brass swivels that are oblong and getting it out there on the bandstand again. It's the best friend I ever had, outlived two good dogs, a half dozen day jobs and a marraige.
You'll get it.
EJL |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:08 pm thread repair
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Ken,
Are you sure all the threads are gone? and chasing the threads wont fix the problem? maybe you could post a pic. If all the threads were stripped, you should have seen aluminum thread material left on the leg threads. If not, maybe a 1/2-13 tap would straighten it out enough to get you by till you can arrange for a complete repair. Even if that is necessary, it aint a big deal... |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:26 pm
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| In an emergency you can wrap plumber's tape round the leg end. It will hold until you can get it fixed properly. |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:42 pm
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Jim
There is debris from the socket thread. The wall of the socket is almost flat for the first 3/8". I will post a pic, but the socket thread had definitely gone. |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:43 pm
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Alan - I have tried PTFE tape. It does hold loosely in place, but not well enough to stop the guitar swaying a lot when you hit the levers.
Last edited by Ken Byng on 11 Feb 2008 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Roche
From:
England
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 1:59 pm
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| Ken , you said you changed to stainless steel legs, I wonder if they caused the trouble , have looked at the other sockets for the same problem, are the screws on the stainless steel legs also stainless steel, just wondering.. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 2:08 pm
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Ken. What I did first because I was in a bind for a gig was cut off the threaded end and welded a bolt with a longer thread on the end of the leg. It worked for about a year. I ruined the leg, but made a grand or so that I wouldn't have otherwise.
Like I said, a piece of screen door screen would bite into it probably enough for the time being.
Guess I'll have to get a passport and come over there..
EJL |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 10 Feb 2008 4:12 pm Thread repair
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Ken,
According to the Helicoil website their products are available in the UK from this Distributor
Emhart Teknologies
177 Walsall Road
Perry Barr Birmingham, B42, IBP
United Kingdom
Tel. 44-0121-356-4811
Fax. 44-0121-356-1598
I hope this helps you with your problem, ask them for a 1/2-13 UNC kit |
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Ernest Cawby
From:
Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Feb 2008 6:08 am hi
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Greese the leg socket real good, put apox e glue in the hole and screw in the leg, after the greese will let you unscrew the leg and you now have new threads.
ernie |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 11 Feb 2008 7:19 am
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Ya know, they DO have some killer epoxy out there. I think they have some stuff that's advertized to fix bolt holes, and they actually do.
I think I'd clean the female socket really good before putting the epoxy in and grease the threads on the male threaded leg. Probably wiping off the excess.
You won't be out anything.
It might work pretty good.
I never took the front legs off my PIII and worst case, you'd have to carry it set up. Lots of us do that anyhow.
Ernest has a great idea.
EJL |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 11 Feb 2008 12:27 pm
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Ken, I have a helicoil set and the size you need. Pat and I are going to the Bluebirds next "Do".. I'll post it to you and collect it from you then.. OK. send me the snail mail address ..
BTW this weekend must have been steel guitar Disaster weekend.. I got to our gig on Saturday night, fixed a problem with the lighting system and went to tune my Emmons..."B" string machine head broke clean off. As I've already cannibalized the C6 neck for spares etc and am left with a semi loafer.. I had to race back home to Tamworth and back to the gig (Erdington)
Annoying..
Just found the kit in the music room..Armstrong Helicoil 1/2" UNC.. Complete with Tap and applicator tool and plenty of inserts. I did one on my Emmons about Five years ago and was so impressed with the results that I did the other leg sockets as well. MUCH MUCH stronger that the plain casting..
It come with comprehensive instructions, but here's the low down on how to do it..
http://coolercasesuk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1211
As it's "Stripped already" you probably wont have to drill the hole out before tapping.. |
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