| Author |
Topic: PSG for Guitarists: E Major Tuning |
Ricky Newman
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 7 Feb 2008 6:56 pm |
|
I've been thinking about a copedent that would be easy for guitarists to learn on.
I moved some stuff around on my Gibson EH-820 to put this on the front neck:
E
B
G#
E
B
G#
E
B
I'm playing around with songs and adding changes as I need them. Because it's an all raising/all lowering mechanism, I've been able to keep the first three pedals doing what they'd do on E9th: Pedal 1 raises all three Bs a full step. Pedal 2 raises the G#s a half step. Pedal 3 with take one or more of those three EB couples up for C#F#
This is the fun part:
Pedal 4 is now a "minor" pedal, dropping both G#s a Half tone to G. Pedal 5 is a "flat7th" pedal, taking the 4th string E down a full tone to D. Pedal 6 is a "sus4" pedal, raising both G#s a half tone. Pedal 7 could keep playing with those G#'s making a "sus2" by dropping them a full tone to F#, giving us the ninth we might be missing. etc.
Pick a fret, pick a chord "type," stomp, strum, and you're playing pedal steel.
I'll post a sound clip when (if) I get everything on this guitar put back together.
Any thoughts?
Ricky
Last edited by Ricky Newman on 8 Feb 2008 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
 |
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 8 Feb 2008 5:57 am
|
|
| Why do pedals 2 AND 6 both have the G# to A change ? |
|
|
|
David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
|
Posted 8 Feb 2008 6:32 am
|
|
My thought exactly too.
Redundant. More to the point is;
minoring the AB pedal down IV chord A.
AKA X lever or Jeff lever
I started a thread on Blues Rock steel with similar aims.
E9 country is entrenched so much, for most, that
the idea of a reduced copedent steel for NON country
kids to play advance slide guitar as a entry point seemed to get a bit less support than I had hoped for.
Personally I think a'Starter steel' for blues rock players
would REALLY ride the Robert Randolph coattails
for a new generation of steelers.
The ones who would NEVER know classic country steel playing,
AT ALL, EVER if not for this entry point.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
|
|
|
Ricky Newman
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 8 Feb 2008 11:40 am
|
|
Okay,
So forgetting about maintaining the first three pedals then (which I put on to keep myself using standard changes on this instrument) here's the 8 string copedent I was thinking of for easy blues/rock playing:
Pedals:Minor..b7th..sus4....sus2...boowah
E
B
G#.......-G..............+A......--F#
E..................--D
B
G#.......-G..............+A......--F#
E
B..................................................---G#
Last edited by Ricky Newman on 8 Feb 2008 12:14 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 8 Feb 2008 11:56 am
|
|
| ... |
|
|
|
Chris Johnson
From:
USA
|
Posted 8 Feb 2008 12:25 pm
|
|
hey fellas
Im not Ricky but I think that Pedal 6 is intended to be used in combination with Pedal 5 to make a sus 7th chord which is an essential in blues and rock. Without Pedal 6, he would have to use both feet to get that basic chord.
Nice starter tuning Ricky (similar to some SS set-ups), It can do about everything needed to play modern popular music (with ease). The only thing i would consider changing is Pedal 3. That pedal is not really needed in blues and rock unless the pupil plans on playing a little country. I would move Pedal 5 to where pedal 3 was to make the 4 chord and Sus 7th rhythm play quicker and easier. That means you can also eliminate Pedal 6 and have a free pedal to do what u please
There is a market for a blues and rock starter steel, but if it is to remain a "starter" steel with a non-adjustable undercarriage for lower pricing, there would have to be a universal blues and rock tuning |
|
|
|
Ricky Newman
From:
Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 8 Feb 2008 2:00 pm
|
|
Hi everyone,
Thanks for replying. I edited out a long rambling story at the beginning of this post, explaining that I was looking for a way to "teach some steel" to a feckless 16 year old at the behest of his Dad. There is just no way this kid , as good a guitarist as he is, is going to sit still for e9th lessons.
Anyway, for the time being, Al Perkins' E7th copedent is back on my Gibson. 10 hours into trying to add these changes I had to give up and just try to get the monster back together:
Pretty guitar, but what a pain to work on.
Besides, I'm not really trying to reinvent the wheel here. As long as it is taking me to work through, I don't have any problem playing non-country genres on E9th. I do a little bit of c6th - just got Ed Packard's amazing chord chart in my e-mail - and I'm sure once I put it together I won't want to do anything with the copedent on my MSA D-10 Classic, except maybe adding more knee levers.
That said, if I get a chance to play with a guitar - maybe try to put a double raise double lower mechanism on my Thomson "little buddy" - I'll give this another shot. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Greg Gefell
From:
Upstate NY
|
Posted 17 Mar 2008 9:00 am
|
|
| Bob - I am intrigued by the high E setup in your link. How would you modify the pedal/knee lever positions for a guitar that has no knee levers but 8 floor pedals? |
|
|
|
David Yannuzzi
From:
Pomona , New York, USA
|
Posted 17 Mar 2008 9:49 am
|
|
Mike Ihde had a a 6 string cougar that had an E major tuning . I think it was made with the same idea to make guitarist more comfortable with the switch to pedal steel.
If I remember correctly he might have given it to Joe Perry from Aerosmith. I wonder if he ever got into it.
Maybe Mike could add something about the changes that were on it and if Joe ever used it |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 18 Mar 2008 5:26 pm
|
|
I think the average new steel player who was used to the guitar would like any open tuning, with pedal A giving him the subdominant and pedal B the dominant. Then he could play to his heart's content and only worry about two pedals. If he could have the relative minor chords on pedals C D and E he would be in heaven. If he could get the 7ths with knee levers he could push them half way to get 6ths, and the guitar would play the blues almost by itself....  |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 18 Mar 2008 8:59 pm
|
|
| Greg Gefell wrote: |
| Bob - I am intrigued by the high E setup in your link. How would you modify the pedal/knee lever positions for a guitar that has no knee levers but 8 floor pedals? |
http://www.pedalcaster.com/copedents/HighE.html
I don't think I've ever seen a guitar without knee levers that could handle those changes. In theory, you could put the knee changes on the inside 4 pedals and play with two feet, but it would still require a double-raise, double-lower changer. If you have that, why wouldn't you have knee levers? 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 5:23 am
|
|
I am the poster child for trying to carry my standard guitar tuning over to pedal steel. Rather than use the tunings that list a bunch of Es and G#s and Bs, I just tune the steel in standard EADGBE guitar tuning and take it from there. I have a couple of 6 string pedal guitars tuned to standard guitar tuning.
A few months ago someone wanted to know if you could get a Fender Tele type sound out of a steel so I just played a few licks on one of my steels to show that you can get the "essence" of a Tele sound. Here it is if you want to hear it.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1ztlywdmxmy
There are several pulls you can set up for country and some for jazz and some for rock in a standard guitar tuning.
Having said all that, I would strongly recommend that ANY beginning student of the steel guitar be taught the E9 neck simply because that is the neck that is the common ground among pedal players. Experiment if you want, but you need to be able to play the E9 neck if you want to actually play the pedal steel in todays musical environment.
Last edited by Bill Hatcher on 19 Mar 2008 6:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 6:38 am
|
|
When I went from 6 string (lead guitar) to Pedal Steel, I didn't really have a problem with the "standard" E9th tuning. It's still the same as a guitar, open is E, 3rd fret is G, 5th is A, etc.
Actually I would hear a lick and go to my Gretsch and figure it out and then go back to the steel and Play (find) the notes and the lick.
Although I'm "hardcore" country, I don't see it as any different for a young guy that is not country oriented as long as the guy actually knows some guitar theory not just some licks from his favorite rock guitarist. |
|
|
|
P Gleespen
From:
Toledo, OH USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 7:25 am
|
|
| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
I am the poster child for trying to carry my standard guitar tuning over to pedal steel. Rather than use the tunings that list a bunch of Es and G#s and Bs, I just tune the steel in standard EADGBE guitar tuning and take it from there. I have a couple of 6 string pedal guitars tuned to standard guitar tuning.
A few months ago someone wanted to know if you could get a Fender Tele type sound out of a steel so I just played a few licks on one of my steels to show that you can get the "essence" of a Tele sound. Here it is if you want to hear it.
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1ztlywdmxmy
There are several pulls you can set up for country and some for jazz and some for rock in a standard guitar tuning.
Having said all that, I would strongly recommend that ANY beginning student of the steel guitar be taught the E9 neck simply because that is the neck that is the common ground among pedal players. Experiment if you want, but you need to be able to play the E9 neck if you want to actually play the pedal steel in todays musical environment. |
Sweet! Was THAT recorded with one of your standard guitar tuned steels?
_________________
Patrick |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 8:34 am
|
|
Patrick.
Yes. That was a Cougar Slidemaster 6 string pedal steel. I don't remember the exact pulls on it, but I do know that the RKR drops the D string down 1/2 step which gives the nice 9 chord and the first pedal pulls up the G string to G# that gives a fine 7th chord. |
|
|
|
Greg Gefell
From:
Upstate NY
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 10:17 am
|
|
Bill - I thought about trying the standard tuning route but got kind of discouraged by the thought of always having to pedal to get even a full chord. I'd be curious to see what kind of setup you came up with to make that workable.
Conversly, I am thinking of adding a "standard" pedal to my setup so I can take guitar like lead breaks easier. I have B E G# B E G# on the inside strings - so if I can get one pedal to drop the lower 3 strings I'd have ADGBE |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 4:17 pm
|
|
| Greg Gefell wrote: |
Bill - I thought about trying the standard tuning route but got kind of discouraged by the thought of always having to pedal to get even a full chord. I'd be curious to see what kind of setup you came up with to make that workable.
Conversly, I am thinking of adding a "standard" pedal to my setup so I can take guitar like lead breaks easier. I have B E G# B E G# on the inside strings - so if I can get one pedal to drop the lower 3 strings I'd have ADGBE |
Your standard pedal idea is a good one, but it seems to only let you have the ADGBE tuning for single line stuff and you will be limited to pulling the upper three strings since the lower three have already been activated and you would have one foot tied up with the standard pedal.
With using the standard guitar tuning, you look at it from several chord positions. You have DGB there making up a G chord. Up two frets and you have an A chord etc. You set up one pull to pull D to E and B to C and there is you C chord in open position. So you have I to IV.
You can also have one pedal that pulls G to G#. That gives you the E chord and then you just move the bar up two frets and the A chord is there. Leave the bar there and RKR the D down 1/2 tone and the V chord is at the second fret also.
This standard guitar tuning will never take the place of E9 tuning, but if you want to play blues and rock you can really do a lot of damage with this.
You have the nice low E there and have a pull that moves A up to B and combine that with the G# pedal and you have a big fat E7 chord that you can't get on the E9 10 string tuning. You can use the low 5ths to play all sorts of rhythm stuff on.
Good thing for a guitar player would be to have a D10 with the E9 on top and some sort of Standard guitar tuning on the bottom. |
|
|
|
Dennis Olearchik
From:
Newtown, PA
|
Posted 19 Mar 2008 4:54 pm Thanks for the mp3!
|
|
Bill, that was very Tele-ish to my ears and just fun to listen to.  |
|
|
|
Lee Wilber
From:
Davenport, Florida, USA (near Orlando)
|
Posted 22 Mar 2008 1:17 pm e-major tuning
|
|
| ricky------ i have a 10 string pedal steel that i tune to e-major except i start with g#-e-b-g#-e-b-g#-e-c#-a lee |
|
|
|
Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
|
Posted 24 Mar 2008 5:21 pm
|
|
| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
Having said all that, I would strongly recommend that ANY beginning student of the steel guitar be taught the E9 neck simply because that is the neck that is the common ground among pedal players. Experiment if you want, but you need to be able to play the E9 neck if you want to actually play the pedal steel in todays musical environment. |
I agree, as a newbie to steel, coming from roughly 50 years of six string (and bass, keys, cornet, MIDI, etc.), I want to learn the most common or familiar E9 tuning, so there is more info available to make my transition easier and more musically enjoyable. I already like the C6 neck though too, just got my new ax today, and C6 sits and fits well. I'll go with my ears for the time being.
BTW, since there's all this mechanical know-how here, is there a diagram anywhere telling me what adjustment on the end affects what string/pedal/lever combination so I can get this thing in tune? There are two pedals and one lever that's just plain wrong... It's the Remington D-10. Thanks in advance for any help getting organized. 
Best regards,
...z
The Constitution only gives us the right to pursue happiness, we have to catch it ourselves. - Ben Franklin
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
|
|
|
Zeek Duff
From:
Longmont, Colorado, USA
|
Posted 26 Apr 2008 9:26 pm Sheesh!
|
|
Well, someone coulda told me that all you gotta do is LOOK at them to see which one moves when you push a pedal or lever...
I did discover that as nice as this ax is, it isn't set up in any "standard" copedent I can find. I'm trying to find someone locally who can advise me as to how to change it or maybe I should leave it alone and just work with the differences. There COULD be a method to the madness, or the other way 'round. Just had to waste some bandwidth...
Later,
...z 
_________________
Fingerstyle guitar jazz from a nice guy,
Zeek Duff in BEAUTIFUL COLORADO
http://www.zeekduff.com
http://www.myspace.com/zeekduffmusic
http://www.cdbaby.com/zeekduff
Http://www.facebook.com/zeekduff
http://www.twitter.com/zeekduff |
|
|
|
chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
|
Posted 26 Apr 2008 10:29 pm
|
|
| ask around some more, locally. someone who's got a little experience could easily eyeball your set-up to see if it's somewhat normal or not! |
|
|
|
Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
|
Posted 26 Apr 2008 11:02 pm
|
|
Great thread...Enjoyed the sound clip.
Since I'm not using my RusLer right now I may set it up for some blues and Rock! 
_________________
DESERT ROSE D-10 8/5...Joe Naylor "SteelSeat"...
Gallien-Krueger MB200 amplifier through an Alessis MicroVerb w/15'Peavey cab.
TELES & STRATS...
FENDER TWIN & SEYMOUR DUNCAN 50W tube amps...1-12" 2-12" & 4-12" cabs and a FENDER MUSTANG-3 |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 27 Apr 2008 5:05 am
|
|
I think that 6-string players need to be SHOWN something the first time they sit down at a pedal steel. I couldn't figure out the tuning, and had packed the durn thing away for a year. I couldn't relate it to regular guitar. In fact thinkin' about regular guitar just made things more confusing! Finally took a lesson. My teacher told me to forget about strings 1 and 2 for a moment. He picked up a 6-string guitar and played a "cowboy" C chord barred at the 4th fret. He said, "It's that E chord, and when you press the first and second pedals it's this A chord." He then played an A chord at the 5th fret on the guitar. Lightbulbs went off like crazy!
If you SHOW a guitar player those two chords, they will relate their knowledge from one instrument to the other. Now if they want to make their steel sound like a 6-string, that's a different story, and Bill does it brilliantly! But SHOWING them those two chords played on a 6-string will solve the first mystery of pedal steel. |
|
|
|
