A quote from Bobbe's Tips

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Mr. Seymour speaks the truth.

"It seems as though most steel guitar albums, regardless of how good the talent is, are just done by the steel player calling a few of his buddies, finding somebody with a recorder in their garage, walking in and saying, “Ok guys, “Way To Survive”, C, 1,2,3,4” These sessions of course, have no production value regardless of how enjoyed they may be at the end or how well everybody plays."
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Steve Waltz · From: USA

I would have liked to see Owen Bradley on that list of producers but maybe I'm missing something, I wasn't there and I'm only going off what I've read and heard on the recordings. The sound was just great. I love the way those records had hard left and right separation with the guitar bass and drums hard left and strings and such hard right with Patsy right in the middle. It's like you can hear the air in the room. It seems like they were trying to get everything out of Stereo when it was new. I guess those aren't steel guitar songs but still.

My pet peave with local bands is that they don't use a producer or at least someone outside of thier band to oversee or at least observe. From my experience the sound man isn't going to tell you the song isn't working or that some other aspect of the recording isn't as good as it could be. I don't think it's their job and they probably don't want to anger anyone since they want the work. It seems like a producer doesn't have to worry about that as much because if they don't tell you there is something wrong who is? The band needs to focous on getting the music right and with the right feel.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I've recorded three albums on my own, so I feel qualified to "chime" in... using palm harmonics, of course. Wink

My first album was recorded very much like Bobbe described, but with musicians like Johnny Case, Junior Knight, Leon Chambers, Paul Polish, and Mac MacRae, the results... jam session though it may have been..., turned out pretty okay, IMHO.

My next two albums were designed not so much as "steel guitar" albums, but more as western swing band recordings; twin fiddles, harmony guitar solos, tunes featuring lead instruments other than steel predominance, arrangements, etc.

The unfortunate truth is that, in my experience anyway, it takes a looooonnngg time for an instrumental album to recoup the investment in recording and pressing costs, if ever. Depending of course on the notoriety of the player, whether or not the player owns the studio, if the musicians are paid, ad nauseum.

Great playing aside, I prefer albums that are more conceptual in nature. So many recordings are de rigeur formulaic: fast E9 hoedown, Price-style shuffle, beautiful ballad, one C6 swing tune... y'all get the picture.

What I prefer are albums such as Jimbeaux's homage to 60's Brit rock Home, James or Perlowin's classical recordings, albums that have a continuous theme that runs through each song. Doug's jazz excursions also fill that bill. But that's just my preference.

Still, most "steel albums" are capricious in nature and are generally on the level of vanity press, regardless of how great the music may be.

What steel guitar albums ARE excellent at providing is credibility and public acceptance for the artist. This acceptance gets the player on steel shows and provides notoriety, thus creating a larger market for instructional products (as an example), should the player decide to put effort into that type of venture.

And as Jeff Newman pointed out to me, an album is ALSO a steel course, if tab and rhythm tracks are made available after the sale. Buddy, Herby, Doug, and others do this very thing, in fact.

Steel courses are MUCH MORE cost effective and profitable than straight ahead albums, especially if the tracks are done budget-sensitive, like using BIAB.

Steel courses, additionally, CREATE MORE STEEL PLAYERS. When there are more steel players, the pie gets larger and each vendor in the business... whether producing courses, leg bags/covers, accessories, steel shows, fishing tackle, Indian moccasins, whatever... has more of a customer base to work.

That's what made Jeff Newman as important as (or more important than) any of the technical and artistic wizards that are our heroes. Instead of fighting over pieces of a small pie, Jeff created a BIGGER PIE and allowed everyone in the business a greater shot at personal success.

God bless Jeff Newman and his memory.
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Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

I see you are enjoying the letter Mike! Ha!

Yep, seems as though you went a step beyond this on your CDs.
Steve, I worked for Owen several times, he was more of a referee than a producer to me, more interested in how noisy my pedals were than how or what I played, (possibly he just trusted me) a nice person and one of the first good Nashville producer guys, I'll always appreciate him and his work, mostly in the mixing department though.

Herb, yes, I agree so much with you and your opinions here. What most folks didn't understand was what a producers job was. Many CDs were named on this forum as being some steel players favorites "productions" that didn't even have a producer! One favorite that was named several times was mostly all "Sampler, Synthesizer and computer" generated. I can't believe how this was ever mistaken for a "Production" of any kind. However, it is a nice CD to listen to, as were most of the past "Step One Productions".
This is what inspired this letter. The fact that most folks don't know the difference between a producer and a session leader. (Or even what a Producers job is.)
But obviously, a few do, and have felt the sword and rath of the same!
Mike Duchette came by and related a couple of funny "Producer" stories to me, but then, I have several myself! As I'm sure most studio players do,
Funny world out there ,

Bobbester

Calvin Walley · From: colorado city colorado, USA

i like the home made CDs better than many of the pro products .
who cares if there are a few bugs in it ,
thats what makes it better to me...
i guess it just sounds more real
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Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

You are missing the whole point again Calvin, it has nothing to do with quality or earthy. This can and also should be "produced in" .
This is what I'm try to make you understand, Good productions or good CDs have everything, this is what a producer does.
Bobbe

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

It may have been true a decade ago. Today, most new steel CDs are recorded on home computers, a track at a time. Now that people have the ability to multi-track at home, a lot more care is going into their recordings.

I haven't heard a new recording of "A Way To Survive" in a long time, but I know what he means. A lot of older albums were produced that way.

P.S. Bobbe, can you add me to the list for your newsletter? I've signed up twice, but I still don't get it. Don't you like me? Winking

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Les Green · From: Jefferson City, MO, R.I.P.

Mike and Bobbe,

How about posting some of those producer stories!
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Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

I listen to many recordings through headphones, and you can pick up lots of detail this way. 2 of my personal favourite all time producers are Ken Nelson and Billy Sherrill. Both have trademark production sounds that are actually poles apart, but great in their own way. The hallmark of a great producer is when you can hear a recording for the first time and identify who did the production.

Sherrill was a master in the 70's and 80's of huge dynamic country recordings where there is much light and shade. There was incredible attention to detail in his productions, and great use of backing vocals to create a big panoramic sound. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I think he is a genius. Charlie Rich's albums that Sherill produced are superb. I read an interview with him where he was asked why he used Pete Drake where there were far more proficient players in Nashville. He said "Because he plays exactly what I want him to play - most steel players cannot play simple".

Nelson on the other hand would use much sparser instrumentation and seemed to have the knack of getting great performance from both singers and musicians. His use of plate reverb in the right places made a big sound from very little. Many of his rock and roll / country recordings are classics and still stand up today.

I quoted Mr Seymour's Rhythmatic in my my personal top 5 produced steel albums. http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=125407&highlight=

I don't think that was produced by a referee. Smile

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I feel that rather than complaining about "production values" of CD's by (mostly) non-famous players, we should be thankful there's a couple of hundred different CD's out there now that are available that showcase steel guitar and pedal steel.

I can remember back when the biggest record shop in Baltimore (a city of almost a million people) had one Speedy West album, and one Jerry Byrd album. THAT WAS IT! It wasn't until the mid '60s that some good stuff started to come out, and be available in local outlets.

Players starting to get into steel guitar these days have about a thousand-mile head start...compared to the way it was when I (and a lot of others) started. Only the "Nashville guys" could catch a good amount and variety of anything to do with steel in the old days. Sad

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Will make this one short. I recieved a call from Shreveport La. Come out here and play steel for us. Sammy and crew met me at the bus station,straight to the station and played a show, no practice with them at all. After playing with them 1 week, morning show, Saturday nite hayride, Sammy came by my rooming house picked me went straight to the station and set up for a recording session. We had never had a practice I played everything with them cold.
First song, the singer had written it never heard it before, asked to play intro, I did a chord intro, the guy stopped us and said play it commercial, I had never heard the song in my life, how we made it thru that session I will never know, but they played all the songs on the mid day shows.

Let me explain, the lead singer in our band wore a Lone Ranger mask on the Hayride and people were supose to give him a name winner recieved free trip to the Hayride, they were using the songs we did to advertse him durring the daily programs.
My time on the La. Hayride was vewry educational, no wonder I left Country music as soon as I did, went home and married NAN EARLE WHALEN, that has lasted 57 years and still going.

ernie

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Bobbe, I ALWAYS enjoy your "tips" e-mails. And I always learn something from them.

Herb, thank you for mentioning that you enjoy my CDs, Coming from you that's a real compliment.

I think your comment about steel CDs being courses is true for recordings that are made for other steel players, but there are some players, Susan Alcorn, David Phillips, Chas Smith, Ned Selfe, Robert Powell, B.J. Cole and me among them, who are trying to reach a wider, or at least a different audience. I've said many times that my primary goal is not to expose people who love the steel guitar to classical music, but rather to expose people who love classical music to the steel guitar. I think it's safe to say that Susan has a similar goal within the experimental music community.

Even if it were possible for us to tab out what we did on our recordings, I doubt that there would be much interest.
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Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Donny Hinson, what has that got to do with "what a producer is?" "What his job is?" Etc.?
I agree that technology is within everyones grasp in this day and time, but this should not only make more CDs available from more remote players, but should also make the CDs better quality, and the good way of doing this is to put more thought into the process of recordinmg the product, THIS is where the GOOD producer enters the picture. Let's not just have more, but also better. Agree?
How ever again, I have always been one to take advantage of the finest back up players at my disposal, and studios, arrangers and disc manufacturers. If its here use it, if not, go where it is.
Nashville Is not the only place in the world with good facilities, many citys have great places to record, but it seems as though Nashville has an abundance of good hungry musicians that know what they are doing in the studio, at good prices.
BUT, Any good session needs a great producer to follow the project from beginning to end, this includes a lot more in the process than just ordering the musicians around.
After the session is cut and done, then what?
Yep, then what? You just want to order thousand to put in the garage? Or would you rather have it on I-tunes making you money?

Sorry, but this is a long story that can go on and on, (if its done right)

Donny, lets do a cd on you, huh?

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Don't take me wrong Donny, I really agree with your post above, yes, we are very lucky today to get to hear so many different players, regardles of the quality of the production or playing skills.
I think you are very correct! ( This time, Ha! Ha!)
Bobbe

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

There are some interesting points here. The first question is - why do players record steel guitar instrumental albums?

In many cases it is to make your work available to the masses as well as your peers. In the majority of cases the projects will be self funded unless you are lucky enough to have a record label picking up the tab. There is a demand worldwide for steel albums but it will never run into hundreds of thousands. Nothing like it. Most will sell at one or two thousand if lucky. As b0b pointed out, the home studio growth has been a major player in enabling us all to record albums on a small budget. Anyone investing a lot on a major steel guitar production almost certainly may well struggle to recoup their outlay.

Donny Hinson makes the point that we are lucky to have such a large choice of steel albums these days. He's right.

However, I think it is a fact that there are not that many high quality production steel albums around, but there are a lot that have great playing and great arrangements. This is down in the main to budget constraints. Its not a complaint from me - just fact.

I would hold up Lloyd Green's Monument recordings as examples of high quality productions, but other people may well prefer his more basic productions pre and post this era. There is a definite "professionality" of these recordings that would be difficult if not impossible to emulate in a home studio environment.

Certainly the use of drum machines and synths can give a full sound to a recording, but my personal take is that I will always prefer to hear an album of musicians rather than programmed keyboards. I can tell a drum machine that has been programmed by a non drummer a mile off.

This is a great topic.

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

I do agree with Bobbe, I think that the lack of production values that some steel guitar recordings exhibit are the result of basically three factors: budget, incorrect musicians, and inexperience.

If a player doesn't have a budget adequate for the task, he'll have to scrimp and save. This means possibly not being able to rehearse the band, not having enough studio time to do the tunes correctly, having to call in favors from friends who have paying jobs they must give priority to, etc. A great project can still result from a shoestring budget, but it will require a great deal of pre-planning.

If a player feels he MUST use, or WANTS to use a sideman that's not up to the level of the project, it can possibly doom the whole thing. I recall a session I attended in LA many years ago. The artist hired some of the best A-team players in LA (what was I doing there? Wink

) at great expense, but felt he had to have his cousin (?!) on drums. Because of the unskilled drummer, all the tracks were worthless, and the artist wasted many, many dollars and the playing of some great musicians.

All of this can actually be categorized under "inexperience." Before I recorded my first album on my own (1995), I'd been recording for other people for 27 years, and doing the album was STILL a learning experience for me. Trust me on this, going into a studio and cutting an overdub track is totally unlike being behind the board, listening to everything, having a conceptualized total sound in your head to strive for, knowing how to communicate with all the different players, knowing how to mix down the final results, knowing the capabilities of the equipment, working with the engineer... the list goes on and on. All of these things play crucial roles in the final results of the project and can only be learned through repetition and concentration.

IMHO, to do an album correctly a player should put a lot of thought into the TOTAL sound he wants BEFORE hitting the studio, which means listening to OTHER recordings and analyzing what's going on there.

He should get the best musicians available to him that are experienced in the kind of music to be created, and PAY them so that they'll take the project seriously and not consider it a charity ball.

He should go to a studio where the engineer and he have good communication with each other. In many situations the engineer is, for all intents and purposes, the co-producer. If the player doesn't have the experience, he should make sure the engineer does.

And if all this doesn't produce the results desired, do it again on the next album, and the next, until the results are achieved. Nobody ever got a free education, and recording is no exception.

Just MHO, your mileage may vary. God bless the child that's got his own.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Joe Alterio · From: Irvington, Indiana

RULES FOR RECORDING YOUR NEW ALBUM

Rule #1: Never use electronic drums in place of real drums. Big turnoff.

Rule #2: Proper mastering of your recording will go a long way. If you don't know what this is or why it's important, you probably shouldn't be recording an album....or, you need to hire a skilled producer to help explain these things to you.

Rule #3: If you want piano on your recording, then use a piano. An electronic keyboard is not a piano.

Rule #4: If you want horns, strings, banjo, harmonica, etc. on your recording, hire musicians that play those instruments....not a keyboard player who has those instruments programmed into his Korg.

Bobbe Seymour · From: Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.

Good points Joe, the slight extra money spent is well worth the effort, I second it.

C. Christofferson · Posted 2 Feb 2008 12:19 pm

Once again..; good, fast, or cheap; pick any two (though not without an exception here or there).

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