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Topic: Amp or guitar? What has a bigger impact on tone? Amps do! |
Eric Philippsen
From:
Central Florida USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2008 11:28 am |
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| What? Guitar heresy! But it's true. And this is why. Take two guitars. One is a high-end custom built steel and the other is an inexpensive starter. Then take two amps. One is a high-end boutique model and the other is a $39.95 Wal-Mart special. Plug that custom steel into the Wal-Mart special and that big$$$ instrument sure doesn't sound all that good, does it? In fact, neither does the inexpensive steel. But plug that inexpensive steel into that high-end amp and, although it might not sound as good as its big brother, chances are it sounds pretty darn nice. In fact, probably easily enough to gig with! So, our amp/electronic setup has more of an impact on the tone we get than the the steel we play. Do others agree or disagree? |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2008 11:54 am
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| Yes |
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Joe Drivdahl
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2008 12:05 pm
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If the comparison is as drastic as what you are defining here then yes, I'm sure the amp makes all the difference. A piece of junk is a piece of junk whether its an amp or a guitar. But if your comparison is to a lesser degree such as between a Sho-Bud and a GFI both played through the same amp, the Bud will have better tone. Both are good, quality guitars, but the Bud will sound better.
Joe
_________________
GFI Ultra, Gibson, and Fender. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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David Wren
From:
Placerville, California, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2008 8:23 pm
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Not to break the tightly constructed examples... but I would have to say NO to both...
IMHO when it comes to PSG, it's the technique of the performer who has the greatest effect on tone.
We've all see the seasoned pro on a low dollar guitar rock the socks off it... and milk every ounce of tone there is to be squeezed out of both instrument and the amplification... and the same can be said for the novice with the best of the best equipment... hey where is the tone? (and intonation  ).
It's all a chain, start with good technique, played on a great PSG, and then take that signal and gently massage it through the electronics that add the disired seasonings and flavor (don't forget the cables and vol. pedal)... then run that amplified signal through some decent speakers.
If it's good enough, the sound man will tell you to turn down
Now, let's discuss composition and taste
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Dave Wren
'96 Carter U12,7X7; 1936 7 string National; Line 6 HX Stomp; Quilter TT-15/TB202; Quilter "Steelaire"; DV Mark "GH 250"with 15" 1501 BW; Boss "Katana" 100 Head w/Line 6 Cab; Telonics VP. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2008 10:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| IMHO when it comes to PSG, it's the technique of the performer who has the greatest effect on tone. |
This is a misconception that comes up quite often; it's mistaking "style" for "tone".
Guitars have tone. Amps modify that tone withing practical limits. Players can modify the result as well within finer practical limits - but those limits are pretty tight. It's a "funnel" effect.
Take a Fender 800 through a '69 Pro Reverb and an Anapeg through a Walker Stereo Steel - and find me a player who can make them sound identical.
A good player sounds the same on any instrument because he *plays* the same - but if you run an oscilloscope and track two rigs with the same song, they will be significantly different as far as frequency response, sustain, attack, decay, etc.
This is one issue that's the same in the 6-string world as the steel world, and the 6-stringers have proven it over and over. Many steel players simply refuse to believe it or try to claim there's no relationship between 6-string and steel, which is ridiculous - I'd suggest those guys read about 10 years of Guitar Player back issues to get up to speed.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Mike Ester
From:
New Braunfels, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 9:06 am
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Is it safe to assume that the "Suck" knob is on the back?  |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 9:41 am
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Joe -
Why is it that you and other forum members are irrevocably hung up on this Sho-Bud thing? Tone is not defined by an icon amongst instruments but, rather, on personal preference and what one's ears hear. Lay that one to rest, please.
Richard |
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Joe Drivdahl
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 10:27 am
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Richard,
Becasue my brother has an '85 Sho-Bud LDG. We both play though Nashville 400s set identical and his tone is unmatchable by either my Magnum or my GFI whether he's playing it or I am. They were just better guitars tone-wise. Simple as that.
Joe |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 11:34 am
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| Joe Drivdahl wrote: |
Richard,
Because my brother has an '85 Sho-Bud LDG. We both play though Nashville 400s set identical... |
Well, there's your first mistake -setting the amps identically.  (And, I certainly hope they're newer ones, or older ones that have been modded. The unmodded variety is pretty limited, tonally.)
| Quote: |
| They were just better guitars tone-wise. |
Better...to you.
You see, just as not everyone can drive any vehicle well, not everyone can get a good sound out of any guitar. It takes skill and experience to optimize the sound of a guitar, and everything else in the sound chain.
(Of course, it also rates mentioning that Buddy Charleton did switch from Sho~Bud to GFI.  ) |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 11:40 am
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| Donny, Of course Charleton has played many different steels, but I was unaware that he was playing Sho-Bud any time recently. I know he's playing GFI recently, but the last I knew (which is some years back--I'm not around where he is often), before that he was playing a Zum. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 12:02 pm
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Joe -
I suspect that you have just supported my claim in that it appears that your personal preference is governing your assessment of the tonal differences between the instruments. I have a GFI Ultra D10 and the tone that I PREFER is the one that I get from my setup. It can never be said that my tone is better or worse than any other. What CAN be said, however, is that the tone from one's rig has a direct influence upon how one practices and plays. If you have THE tone which you prefer then you can milk all of the nuances from the instrument without distraction. And that may be the operative word - distraction - since a less than desirable tone (to me, you, or anyone) amounts to a distraction - something which diverts your attention from the task at hand and that is, simply, the making of pretty music. I have no doubt that your practicing and playing would suffer were you to use my GFI rig. By the same token, I would most likely not be totally happy with the tone of your Sho-Bud. What REALLY matters is that we, individually, enter a true comfort zone when we sit at our instruments. Happiness and contentment become ours, regardless of what anyone else thinks or prefers. That is, after all, what this whole thing is about - is it not?
Respectfully,
Richard |
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Ron Randall
From:
Dallas, Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 12:38 pm
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Last time I checked, I need a guitar and an amp to make music.
R2 |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 12:53 pm
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IMO....Comparing forty year old instruments and amps with those manufactured much later, or comparing six string standard guitar pickups with steel guitar pickups, is not a true comparison.
Style and tone is two seperate things, and style in many instances is discernible. When making a tone comparison, ask any player play the same thing on all guitars, using the same amp, same tuning, same volume pedal, and same amp settings.
Those who can't actually "see" which is being played, may be greatly surprised with the results. Should they not be able to identify any specific instrument consistently, it could then only be attributed to abscence of visual reference. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 12:54 pm
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| Joe - When you are playing your Magnum or GFI through your Nashville 400, why do you set the tone controls the same as those on your brother's amp? Those settings may work well for his Sho-Bud, but may not be the optimum settings for your guitars. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 2:00 pm Tone Amps and Sound
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Heres the deal. Ever hear a steel played without an amp or an electric guitar, pretty much useless. The sound is in the amp and the hands. I have seen an old Mult-chord played by a person who knew how and to me it sounded as good as anyone on the forum. I have heard a C6 player play as god as anybody. As I told a local steel player when I bought an amp from him " You Could make any amp sound good". I believe the sound is n the talent, which you have a difficult time buying. The amp is secondary and the guitar is useless with out the other two MHO FWIW not Much
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"Oh what a tangled web we weave when we first begin to deceive" Someone Famous |
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Steve Norman
From:
Seattle Washington, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 2:35 pm
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Amps do change a lot of the characteristics of the sound. I have a twin reverb silver face, a nashville 112 (with the KFM) and a steel king. Very different sounds from all 3. I happen to prefer the 112 with my GFI,I like the twin for my 6 string work, and use the steelking with a steel driver III for really big gigs. I also notice that my rig sounds really crappy until I get about an hour of playing in. If I have to record I play at real low volumes for about an hour prior to recording, just so I can control the tone better with my hands.
I have played a few different steels, and like 6 strings they all have a different sound, but I would rather have my 112 with any well built steel than the other way around.
In the 6 string world I am more particular about what picks I use. To thin = trebly thin poppy sounds, and to heavy is dull and muddy. String gauges, and string metals also have an enormous effect to my ears.
I havnt really explored different thumb-pick gauges, and with finger picks I go for comfort and feel more than anything. I really wonder how much tone control exists in the different types of picks.
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GFI D10, Fender Steel King, Hilton Vpedal,BoBro, National D dobro, Marrs RGS |
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Joe Drivdahl
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 3:49 pm
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Lee,
We figured that setting the amps the same would give us the best head to head guitar test without including amp settings in the comparision.
And thats all I've got to say about that.
Joe
_________________
GFI Ultra, Gibson, and Fender. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2008 5:43 pm
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I sometimes record without an amp. The tone of the guitar itself can be good enough. Here's an example, recorded direct from my Sierra Session into a Roland 880 recorder:
b0b/gospel/In_The_Garden.mp3
The reverb effect is built into the recorder, and I probably applied a bit of EQ too, but I'm sure that the choice of pickup and the sustain of the instrument itself are the primary features of the sound that you hear. An amp was not required in this case.
Tell me what, if anything, does this say about "tone"?
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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James Collett
From:
San Dimas, CA
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 9:34 am
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Joe-
A more accurate comparison would be to set the amp levels totally flat or plug them both in direct into some sort of recording interface and comparing them later to get a result with as little external sound alterations as possible. You also have to take into consideration pickups! If I remember correctly, Sho~Bud pups were wound to a relatively low resistany (yes, I know that's not the REAL term for it  ) compared to modern pups. Neither realistically sounds Better, Just different.
BTW, the fact that GFIs are metal-framed with maple die-board bodies, while Sho~Buds were all wood bodies. Different changer finger mat'l can account for some tonal differences, too.
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James Collett |
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Joe Drivdahl
From:
Montana, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 10:03 am
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Ok I've got one more thing to say about that...
Jim,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. In other threads, Bobbe has talked about the 'Timbre' that is built into the guitar as a result of the "ingredients" and craftsmanship that go into the guitar itself and has nothing to do with a specific amp (I hope thats right Bobbe). I think that is the difference I am talking about between the Sho-Bud and the GFI. The Sho-Bud, being built of solid wood, has that timbre which is what I consider a good, quality sound, not that there is anything wrong with my GFI; I love that guitar. It is faster and smoother and much less clumsy than the old Sho-Bud.
Installing George L's in my Magnum improved the sound quality in my opinion, because again IMO the George L's pickup more of the guitar's actual 'timbre' than the single coils did.
And like you, Jim, Just becasue I have no idea what I am talking about doesn't mean I can't teach it to someone else  .
And THAT's all I have to say about that.
Joe |
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James Collett
From:
San Dimas, CA
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 10:19 am
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Which leaves me with one question......
Didn't Sho~Bud make some aluminum-neck steels too (Superpro)? I wonder, other than the obvious differences, how different they sounded in comparison to the traditional Sho~Bud 'timber' (thanks Joe ).
Back on topic, IMO there are so many variables when it comes to how one 'sounds' but with 1 mediocre guitar and a fantastic amp a skilled player can get a wider varity of better sounds than someone with a fantastic guitar and a cheap amp. Different amps have different 'flavors' too. A 1964 Fender Deluxe sounds a lot warmer than an early 80's Session 500. (BTW, I like the Deluxe better  )
Your mileage may vary!
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James Collett |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 7:03 pm
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| Quote: |
| ...comparing six string standard guitar pickups with steel guitar pickups, is not a true comparison. |
I keep telling players that. Still there's always somebody that trys to draw comparisons between 6-string guitars and pedal steels.
Different animals, really.
It's the same with amps...
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| A 1964 Fender Deluxe sounds a lot warmer than an early 80's Session 500. |
Yeah, and an old Jaymar toy piano sounds brighter than a Steinway grand. And a Harley Davidson Fatboy sounds different than a Kawasaki Ninja. You can go on making comparisons of vastly different things all day, and it doesn't prove anything, it doesn't serve any purpose. Comparing a 20-watt tube amp with a 200+ watt solid-state amp? Yes, I would certainly hope and wager there's a significant difference. (Just between you and me, I don't want my Fenders to sound like my Peaveys, or vice-versa.) Cute little tube amps sound like...well...cute little tube amps. I've got a couple, and I never use them because they sound like little tube amps. When Mr. Loud "slams" me with 100-watts of distorted Riviera, I wanna be able to push back.
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| Didn't Sho~Bud make some aluminum-neck steels too (Superpro)? I wonder, other than the obvious differences, how different they sounded in comparison to the traditional Sho~Bud 'timber' |
Here, we have the other side of the coin, a comparison between things that are nearly identical. I doubt that one out of a hundred players can differentiate between the sound of a guitar with a wood neck, and one with metal neck. Even Bobbe Seymour (one of our outspoken tone experts) told us that the necks don't really do much to change the sound of the guitar. I believe he said he even took the necks completely off of guitars, and they still sounded pretty much the same.
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2008 7:48 pm
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| Quote: |
| Becasue my brother has an '85 Sho-Bud LDG. We both play though Nashville 400s set identical and his tone is unmatchable by either my Magnum or my GFI whether he's playing it or I am. They were just better guitars tone-wise. Simple as that. |
If it's "simple as that" you guys might want to read up on tone, perceptions, personal opinion, musical styles, and any of 100 variables that invalidate your entire premise.
A Shobud does NOT have better tone than a GFI - that's an *opinion*.
A Shobud has a *different* tone than a GFI - THAT pal, is a factual statement.
You would do well to educate yourself a bit before proclaiming statements as fact that are patently false.
| Quote: |
We figured that setting the amps the same would give us the best head to head guitar test without including amp settings in the comparision.
And thats all I've got to say about that. |
And so if one guitar has lower gain than another, which affects the input stage of the amp and the resulting tone (not in a good or bad way - it just CHANGES it) - you "figure" ignoring that validated your test..and that's all you've got to say?
Saying "I think a (particular Shobud) sounds better than a (particular GFI)" is a fair statement of an observation. But your claim has no basis in fact.
No guitar sounds "better" than any other guitar - there will undoubtedly be some player who thinks a Multi-Kord sounds better than an Anapeg. And he's right - as far as his opinion goes.
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| ..comparing six string standard guitar pickups with steel guitar pickups, is not a true comparison. |
It certainly is. Electronics does not change because of the type of instrument. You are still dealing with magnets, wire, string vibration - and the comparisons are much more valid and closely related than most steelers will admit. It's really funny how guitar techs view the whole thing - it's like steelers live in a closed-in world where they think the rules of electronics and physics don't apply...that somehow because the instrument is a steel, the rules change.
If more steelers (and I include many of the makers) were open-minded and tried to adapt the mounds of research and development that has gone into guitar technology over the years, the steel would be a far more progressive and well-developed instrument, and not stuck in 60's "back-room machine shop" technology. There *have* been some new ideas over the years - but still a recurring theme of "the guys who try to compare 6-string technology are wrong" hanging over this tiny little pocket of the guitar world.
And it IS part of the guitar world, no matter how far you try to distance it.
And Joe - it's very clear you don't see the difference between opinion and fact.[/quote]
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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