Fed-ex Ground shines again :-(

Mike Cass · Posted 17 Jan 2008 3:29 pm

Once again, theyve torn up a newly restored p/p belonging to a very irate customer of mine:x Mad

.
Now, he blames me for shoddy workmanship, but in all fairness to him he's a self-described novice to the instrument and probably unaware of the damage that can befall a psg in shipping.
According to this(up to now)rather nice fellow,at least 1 pickup is broken loose from its plastic bottom mounting plate and 1 of the threaded stud/wing nut/clip arrangements that holds the pedal rack to the legs was found floating in the case. With him being a novice,I shudder to think of what other damage may now exist that his untrained eye may not percieve.
Kinda funny, but he said it didnt even look like they were his original pickups...but to be honest,considering the condition that the guitar was in when it arrived here Id be suprised if he recognized it all at now Smile

Add to that the fact that Im still owed a considerable ammount of $$ on the job and you have a pretty good idea of the kind of day Im having Crying or Very sad

You know, Ive tried everything from packing them like my first-born was inside to using a returnable road case to just a regular case and nothing ever seemed to work consistently. Finally I looked at how the Emmons Co. ships; minimal packaging and probably one of the lowest damage rates in the business.
That seemed to work quite well until now.
Im at my wits end and am at a total loss as to how to insure that my clients get exactly what they paid for.
Any advice would be very helpful. Not looking to share war stories here, just a little feedback.
and please excuse the rant....
Thanx,

MC

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I worked as a shipper of very valuable and fragile antiques for years and never had a package damaged. I could show you how I did it...but cannot describe it well over the net. The basic principle I used was the item inside its packaging must have NO opportunity for movement at all under even the most demanding conditions (being dropped off the truck, conveyor belt, run over by a truck etc etc). That meant sheet cardboard cut to size(never a box) and packing materials jammed in there with considerable force. For guitar pickups it might mean small foam shims placed around the pikup so it cannot move even if dropped (cause you can bet it gets dropped and how). The only other tip I can offer is to never use "ground" shipment, always air AND even tho the insurance is absolutely worthless in terms of trying to get your damaged item replaced...it does have a function in that items insured for a certain value are placed in a special area of the trucks and are given special handling and treatment. I forget what that threshold was and it may have changed since I worked as a shipper but I believe the amount was $500 for UPS. anything $500 or over they had to put in a special secure area of their truck.

sorry man, I feel your pain.

Mike Cass · Posted 17 Jan 2008 4:28 pm

thanx for your reply.
For as many good shipping experiences as Ive had theres been a dissappointing number of bad ones over the years,packing procedures notwithstanding.
Ive used the foam under the p/u's trick and still had them broken or arrive with a case full of windings. One time the foam which was taped to and around the strings to maintain its position was jammed back into the changer and therefore useless.
btw, this shipment WAS insured for $3500.00 so if theres a special area for high worth shipments it shouldve wound up there. And packing doesnt account for outright losing the package as has also happened before. I still have one floating around out there somewhere. Thank God it was one I bought and not one belonging to a customer.
As I said, Ive packed these things every which way, using every possible form of reasonable container and packing material, even allowing the shipping company to pack it per their guidelines with no consistency in arrival condition that I can see.
Ive also found with steels and dobros that the stiffer the inside packaging is, the more the instrument tends to absorb the shock of a drop or whatever thus resulting in damage. The pillow effect SHOULD work, but doesnt, consistently.
Bottom line, these things are dang fragile and no matter how you pack it, if your driver,loader etc. aint happy that day, youre screwed.
Sometimes you just get lucky I guess. Unfortunately I dont think that will make my client any less stressed out, or me for that matter.
MC

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

dont know what to say Mike...you got my sympathy for sure. Hehe..one of my packages actually arrived at the buyers home with a tire tread mark across it. Mad

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

Bummer. Doesn't look like any shipper is reliable. Bad stories on UPS frequently too.

Suggestion - I saw mention here on the Forum a while back that some people (perhaps a builder) had been shipping PSG's via Greyhound Bus. That sounds interesting. Heck, they may even take time to notice "FRAGILE" written all over the box.

Ken
_________________
Steeless.

Mike Cass · Posted 17 Jan 2008 6:03 pm

Ken, yup no reiabilty whatsoever, regardless of the shipper. Dick Miller used to swear by Greyhound. Only thing that scares me there is the access anyone could have to a package under a bus, and most bus stations arent in the best parts of town.....

To catch you up...I spoke with the owner just now and he found that the support block on the E9 changer end of the case was severly compressed even though the guitar was tight in the case and the guitar was somewhat detuned. Additionally,the E9 changer and strings have left marks on the bottom of the new case, so theres yer damaged case. It took a trip face down to meet the earth. Also the pickup pushes back into position and works,but I doubt it'll read out. Nothing I cant have fixed, and am hopeful that they'll approve the claim Ive started.
Probably will need a whole new case and Ron jr to reglue and rewind the pickup. Customer has cooled down alot so thats a good thing. Imagine his dismay though at seeing his sparkling new axe with those problems Sad

Id be po'ed too, and am actually at the gross negligence that the shipping industry participates in with regard to package safety.
Makes one think about starting their own musical instrument shipping service........could there be a market? I know Gibson guitars has gone thru many shippers for the same reasons. Might pay more than playing-rebuilding Smile

Doug Earnest · From: Branson, MO USA

I have had good luck with the US Postal Service.

Ken Mizell · From: Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA

It would seem there would be somebody out there that's reasonable. Like, maybe we could pay an extra charge for special handling (not just insurance) in hopes of getting a guitar there in good shape.

Doug - What's the size/weight limits for a parcel? They obviously accept your Stage One's with no problem. If the good old USPS is actually decent with handling "fragile" items, maybe back to basics with them is the answer.

This nonsense kind of scares me. I've been without a PSG since 1989, and I'm getting a new one sometime this year. I'd be torqued up beyond description if it came in trashed by UPS or FedEx. I think I'd rather burn gas and take a ride to get the guitar than trust shippers (if the pickup location is close enough).

Ken
_________________
Steeless.

Carl Williams · From: Oklahoma

Hi Mike,
Sorry to hear of this unfortunate situation for you and our fellow steeler. Testimonial here...I'm sure most of us who have had Mike work on our steels have received them in pristine condition without a problem--Mike's packing job was superb for my LDG. Mike, I want to suggest the Bus route also...in fact, you might even check with your local charter bus services who just might either be going in the same direction of the steel your sending out or in close proximity to the steeler...I would bet many steelers, me included, wouldn't mind driving a few miles out of the way to a reasonably close town/city where the charter might be either going to or through to get their newly restored/worked on steel...of course, timing would be the obvious obstacle here as well as no insurance coverage--just my 2 cents...Mike, do me a favor and email me your current address: choctawoaks@cox.net Thanks, Carl

Jon Kostal · From: Westmont, Illinois, USA

I've shipped several steels with no damage. I pack the insides of the case TIGHT. Then wrap the case with a layer of bubble wrap and cardboard. But I think the most important aspect is to leave the handle out, and the label on top, by the handle. This makes it easy for the driver/handler to move the steel easily. If it's a big heavy box, how do you think they will handle it? I recently shipped an amp this way, no problems. Good luck. Jon

Joe Stoebenau · From: Pennsylvania, USA

wow, Sorry to hear that Mike. I hope you can recover from the shipper.
While not steel guitars, I have shipped a couple of $6000.00 french horns to a repair shop for service and the shop insists that the horns are not packed in the case because being in the case actually damages the instrument because it's not a tight enough fit.
Ben is correct that there can be no movement at all. so by wrapping the instrument like a mummy in large cell bubble wrap,and then in a big box,the movement problem is eliminated.

I have also shipped guitars and some amps by packing the guitar(wrapped in bubble wrap) in the case then inside a guitar box and then in a larger guitar box with peanuts all around the inner box. A lot I realize but it helped to cushion the shock of dropping off the truck.
I used to work quality control(if there is such a term) for Roadway and learned from everyone elses' shipping mistakes.
Not you Mike...it sounds like you had everything secured.

Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

The great thing about bus freight is that the drop height to the ground is no more than a foot; not much can be damaged that way. I've bought some beat up vintage acoustic guitars that the sellers shipped in scary ways - sometimes just a cardboard wrapping with no padding at all; yet none have arrived damaged when by bus.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Basically, you pay your money and take your chances with ANY shipping, regardless of how it's shipped. You can ship 100 pieces packed the same way and no problems and the 101 piece packed the same way is damaged in shipment.

Tom Higgins · From: New Jersey, USA

Peanuts might work on something as light as an acoustic guitar,but they`re useless on a heavy steel.I have a beautiful old Bud with a cabinet cracked in two places to attest to that.And UPS will use peanuts if you pay them to pack it,no matter what they tell you.
Tom

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I'll repeat what I've posted before - pack to protect your item from an 8' fall onto concrete and you'll be in reasonably good shape no matter what shipper you use. I just had my second claim with UPS after shipping more than a thousand boxes, and the claim was paid within two weeks with absolutely zero hassles - and yes, I packed it, used MY box (and not a new one) and they processed the claim immediately. It was no problem because it was packed with hard foam in the corners, bubble rap on the item, and peanuts only for "loose fill" in the air space.

All shippers will drop something off a mechanized ramp periodically - and marking "fragile" or "this side up" means nothing to a process that's 99% automated.

I guess bus shipping might be fine if you have a terminal nearby (how do they handle it at the receiving end?) but I'd have to drive to downtown L.A. - not exactly convenient.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Bruce Atkinson · From: Massachusetts, USA

First, let me express my sympathy for the damage to your guitar and to your customer, for having his pride and joy damaged. Hopefully, you can get Fedex to pay full price for complete replacement of the guitar. If it were mine, I'd have to consider that the entire cabinet is 'out of whack' or internally stressed and will NEVER sound right.

For what it's worth, I WORK for one of the carriers mentioned in this thread. The name has been withheld to protect the guilty. I work at a large hub-sorting center that sees nearly 500,000 packages per day during the December peak season. Needless to say, there's a small army of workers, and literally MILES of conveyor belts in the building!

Roughly 80% of all the packages that come into the building are automatically sorted. They get unloaded directly to a conveyor belt, proceed up to the 'top level' sorting machines, and, when they get to the right destination chute, an arm comes out to 45 degrees and routes the package down a set of rollers. For small packages, a miniature version sorting system is used, and 10-15 small packages to a single destination are put in a 40-gallon baggie and sent to the loading destination. For the most part, the system is flawless.

The remainder of the packages...oversize, unusual shape (car bumpers, skis), excessively heavy, or hazardous materials are handled manually. They are placed (or horizontally thrown) on the floor, scanned with a hand-scanner, the destination within the building marked on the package, and the package placed on a waist-high conveyor belt that runs to all destinations, where they are offloaded from the belt and manually loaded/stacked/positioned by a loader.

Unfortunately, not all employees treat the packages like they are their own stuff. And, fact of life is, the heavier the package, the more likely it will not be handled gently. Based on my own observation, there is no such thing as FRAGILE. Basically, every package is treated like all others of the same general size/shape/weight. This is especially true as the weight of a package exceeds 100 pounds or so. Everything from metal castings, small 6-cylinder engines, car transmissions, rocks, and sometimes large electronic equipment fit this category. The big, bulky, or heavy packages are, of necessity, slid, rolled, shoved, end-over-ended, or - to facilitate unloading - placed on the conveyor belt and then rolled off to the floor prior to going 'topside', about 24" high at that point before it gets manually scanned.

As for shipping a PSG, I'd guess its luck-of-the-draw whether it would be treated as a 'regular' package and sorted automatically or handled manually. I'm going to guess manually, because of its size, and it was tossed to the side of the conveyor belt during unloading. Another scenario would be it was on 'top of the heap', and was dropped to the floor. Either way, the sudden, strong shock probably caused the damage described.

Now that I've painted a rather bleak picture of what clearly isn't "Grannies' Personal Package Delivery Service", let me say that less than 0.02% of packages in a day have damaged/lost contents. This does not include minor package tears, slight crushing, etc. For about a year, I worked in the damaged-package repair area, and a 'busy day' was, perhaps, 60-70 packages that had visibly damaged/lost contents. Perhaps another 200-300 packages with no contents damage are taped or reboxed and sent on their way. Those numbers are for a full day, not just my shift. From a management perspective, the number is statistically quite small.

Based on my own observations, perhaps 50-60% of all damaged packages are the result of poor packaging. Common is self-sealing flaps of padded envelopes/boxes unsealing themselves (1 strip of tape is cheap insurance!). Another major problem is too little tape. In general, 1 strip of shipping tape along each closure is good for at most 25 pounds when used by itself. Anything heavier, 2-3 strips with 2" over each end. For boxes over 50 pounds, a couple of 'cross taping' strips is also recommended. Some of my biggest laughs came as the result of poor packaging...like the car transmission in a $5.00 discount-store plastic storage bin with some styrofoam peanuts for packing. Or the 36-pack of toilet paper in its original plastic wrapper shipped to Canada! (They must've run out since I was last up there) I've even seen a simple trash bag used for a blanket, and a shoe-box for a 20 pound item! Package crushing is another problem, generally caused by the lack of sufficient 'stuffing'.

What was said earlier in this thread about packaging is correct. My rule is "if it moves, you lose!". Definitely pack anything you ship TIGHTLY in its container! Leave no space whatsoever that could permit the contents to be crushed, as it's possible 200 pounds or more of other packages may be loaded on top of your package! Also, styrofoam popcorn/corn curls are only effective for items less than, perhaps, 20 pounds. They crush too much when a 70# item (your prized PSG!) gets a sudden jolt or drop! I recently received a laser printer packed in 3" layers of bubble wrap in a very-well-taped cardboard box. Inside the printer was additional bubble-wrap to prevent the guts from shifting around. The printer works perfectly!

That being said, note I also received my first (used) PSG a couple of months ago packed in its case, with cardboard used as ‘stuffing’ to prevent ANY movement of legs, pedals, and even knee-levers. Sheets of cardboard cut to size (a large box or two cut apart) and wrapped around the PSG case, and GENEROUS AMOUNTS of shipping tape were used to secure it all. A hole was cut in the box to allow the handle to be fully exposed, and, in all likelihood, USED by the package handlers. My MSA arrived absolutely DAMAGE FREE!

Lastly, I really LIKE the BUS idea! Every “handling point” along the way is ‘personal’, it’s not likely to get thrown or dropped more than 12”, and is generally reliable. Just don’t mark the package with its contents as it COULD be picked up by a crook if they knew what was inside. If it had to be handed off between bus carriers, say, Greyhound to Trailways, I don’t know if that would work….I have no idea, either, what their insurance liability for damage/loss would be, either. Also, I don’t think they have any kind of package tracking system, either. The regular package-carrier companies can usually tell where a package was last scanned, by whom/what, and what its status is…

I hope all this makes sense. Pack it tight! Pack it strong! Lots of tape!!!

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

Ouch. Here I sit with a p/p in need of work and I'm reading this thread. It could've been written by Mike Cass or any other service provider or customer. But I guess there are no guarantees by any shipping company for safe and undamaged arrival.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Bruce

Thanks for that very informative post. It all sounds very logical and, given the huge amount of traffic involved, it would seem that they generally do a good job.

Since reading the above, I think that in future I would ship a steel guitar without its case; it's just not a tight enough fit. Better, I'd imagine, to thoroughly wrap the body in lots of bubble-wrap, then securely box it.

I've never been able to relax while I have a steel in transit, 'though I've been lucky so far...

RR

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I know that a number of builders leave the case handle out of the cardboard and experience very few problems with their guitars when shipped. That being said, it has been my experience that about 25% of the guitars that are shipped to me experience some damage. As a result of all the finger pointing by the parties involved that goes on when there is a problem, I take all the guitars that I ship to a local UPost store and pay them to handle the entire thing- packing, insurance, etc.- that way if there is ever a problem I am not involved and neither is the recipient. It is roughly twice as expensive to do it that way (figure $150 or so to ship a guitar across the US). I have UPost pick the least expensive shipper (usually UPS, DHL, or FedEx). Knock on wood- I have never shipped anything that way that has experienced any damage- and that is well over 100 opportunities in the few years that I've been at this.

Bo Borland · From: South Jersey -

When my Derby was delivered it had shipped to Maine first from Kentucky then to NJ.. The steel and case were placed in a just big enough to hold them cardboard box. At some time along the trip the box had fallen and landed on the handle side. The only damage was a broken divider panel and a lower spring had popped off.
I was very lucky.
_________________
Bo Borland
Rittenberry SD10 , Derby D-10, Quilter TT12, Peavey Session 400 w/ JBL, NV112, Fender Blues Jr. , 1974 Dobro 60N squareneck, Rickenbacher NS lapsteel, 1973 Telecaster Thinline, 1979 blonde/black Frankenstrat
Currently picking with
Mason Dixon Band masondixonband.net

Ernest Cawby · From: Lake City, Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I shipped a 6 stringer and built a case for it of wood, shipped OK. when I ship an amp it is in a 3/4 inch spruce with handles, UPS charges $10.00 more if it is not in card board.
Sent a National D8 to Cal. slight damage.

ernie

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

the bottom line to me would be....if they screwed it up, they should pay for it's repair/value whatever!

Jerry H. Moore · From: Newnan, GA, USA

I've bought two steel guitars online and both were Fed-Exed. One was almost out of the box when I got it and the other was damaged inside the case! I WILL NOT use FEDEX! I bought some tele parts and they were fedexed and had similar damage and missing parts. The package looked like it had been ripped open. I gave up on trying to make a claim Mad

I sell on ebay and use mostly USPS and occasionally UPS on heavy items. I've never seen a new steel guitar packaged. I'd like to know how it is packed from the factory.

Michael Hardee · Posted 18 Jan 2008 4:51 pm

When I bought a Pedalmaster from Roy Thomas 15 years ago he introduced me to Greyhound freight, only thing he used. One day from Louisiana to Tampa. I've used Greyhound ever since for steels/guitars with not a problem. As someone else pointed out, your package gets more personal attention, no mechanized sorting, and not far to drop if someone is careless. I always pack well to eliminate shifting, wrap in cardboard, tape well, and leave the case handle exposed for the handlers. Downside is limited insurance coverage if something dramatic happens.

Mike Cass · Posted 18 Jan 2008 6:33 pm

thanks for all the good advice. The value thing on Greyhound doesnt sound too good though.
Like I said before, its just the luck of the draw as far as I can tell. Ive had consistent problems shipping to the West Coast; amps, guitars, you name it. North, East, South and overseas is usually fine. Maybe its better for me to refer those West Coast jobs to Jim P. or whoever out there. I hate these things getting torn up, not to mention usually having to re-do alot of what Id just done.

b0b, I think you can lock 'er down if you'd like, thanks.

MC

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