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Topic: Cabinet drop...What do you think? |
Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2008 8:41 pm |
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What causes it ?
When I build fence, its impossible to get all four strands equeally tight. Same with strings. Does the cabinet bow from string pull or is it something else.
If it is the cabinet, I have an idea, but need some opinion's first.
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2008 9:15 pm
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I think you are right in that it is something else.
Some say the downward pull from stepping on the pedals.
Some say internal pulling.
My ZB has very little Cab Drop. See Picture..
My Carson Wells is a very good Steel and seems to be built much sturdier with modern mechanics and has more cabinet drop.
So I think (AssUme) it is a combination of mechanical forces.
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 3:40 am
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I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Most 'drop' is actually due to the fact that there aren't enough screws holding the keyhead(s) to the body of the guitar. Yes, the mechanical forces applied to the body/cabinet can 'cave in' the body/cabinet and that force is indeed something to be reckoned with....especially if the 'over-center' principle of leverage is not employed in the original design of the guitar. But the biggest culprit is/(are) usually the keyhead(s). Increases in string tension can deflect these scudders in basically three different directions. Add additional screws to the keyheads, and you'll eliminate more than half of your so-called cabinet drop from the get-go. After that, it depends on the guitar itself and just what is being done with it. There is no one singular factor that causes 'cabinet drop' as we know it. It is a combination of many dynamics that contribute to the problem. The very easiest one to start with in eliminating this gremlin is the fact that the dog-gone keyheads aren't tied down to the body/cabinet with enough screws....period. Tie those puppies down and then you can go from there. Keyless guitars don't seem to have as many gremlins as the keyed guitars. They are shorter to begin with for starters, so that helps to eliminate at least a percentage of the problem right from the start all other factors being equal. Take the time to drill extra holes in the bottom of the keyheads and the body/cabinet, and I'll guarantee you'll eliminate better than half of the drop you now experience without doing another thing to the guitar. Torque is torque and if it is transmitted to shafts and a casting or extrusion that isn't amply tied down. it'll bend. It may only be a few thousandths of an inch. but it WILL bend. That's more than enough to throw your other strings out of tune. The late Charlie Ward had me machine some keyheads for an Emmons p/p several years ago. I was instructed to 'make them like the sample' as it were. When I called him and apprised him of the fact that there were only four screws tying these things down to the body, he told me to go ahead and add screw holes. I did, and it knocked out almost 2/3 of the 'drop' formerly exhibited by this guitar prior to his working on it. It just simply works!!! Do it!!!
PRR |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 7:37 am
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Paul, I agree with you..that some of the drop is eliminated with the tying down of the keyhead.
FWIW...when I made my home built I used a 1970 Sho-Bud key head. It had 2 screws in the narrow end and one in the middle at the wide end.I added 2 holes in the front end and used stainless steel screws to fasten the head with. I suppose it helps a bit that the screws go thru 7/8 birdseye maple.
On a good day, this klunker has one half cent cab drop. On a bad day it is 2.5.
BTW can anybody explain the difference in cab drop from one day to the next? Maybe it's just me stompin' harder on the pedals to get the 2.5
Also, the axle blocks are tied down in similar fashion at the changer end. Half inch shaft into aluminum blocks. The blocks are each secured with two 1/4" bolts through the 7/8 birdseye. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 8:52 am
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The keyhead attachment Paul talks about seems very critical, and as he says, it all boils down to torque. If you look at the old Fenders, the keyhead is sunken into the body and secured with 6 screws; Then there's a metal frame holding the pedal levers, and no crosshafts (which could twist to the side depending on where the pulling levers are located) with the wood body/keyhead suspended inside the frame - and no cabinet drop at all. Interestingly, compare that with the GFI Ultra's lightweight metal construction which looks pretty "normal" but also has no drop. In that case, it seems like it's purely precision manufacturing and a well-thought out, simple design.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 9:03 am
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| Quote: |
| Cabinet drop...What do you think? |
I think far too many people worry about it. If you have trouble tuning and playing in tune, I wouldn't be quick to blame it on the guitar.  |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 9:20 am
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Donny, I, for one, don't worry about it. It is more of a mechanical challenge, special to the pedal steel. A challenge that is so much fun trying to fix.
Who knows....30 years from now huh? |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 10:02 am
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I don't have a problem with cabinet drop on my Derby either.
The reason I posted this was to find out if it was the bowing of the cabinet. If so why not create a perminate stress rod in the cabinet. It would push the cabinet apart just a little creating stress before you tune. I picture a truss rod, such as the adjusting rod in a guitar neck. Does this make any sense?
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 10:39 am
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Bill, it looks tome like some guitars have this rod already...the flat piece of steel going across the bottom of the body in the middle. I've seen it on the Emmons, Zums, Franklins
My opinion of this cross rod is that it looks clunky and an attempt at a quick-fix.
Surely, modern engineering can come up with a better remedy that is also more pleasing to the eye. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 11:13 am
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| Bent Romnes wrote: |
Donny, I, for one, don't worry about it. It is more of a mechanical challenge, special to the pedal steel. A challenge that is so much fun trying to fix.
Who knows....30 years from now huh? |
Bent, it was fixed...decades ago, by Fender, and decades later, by Emmons. However, even in most steels made today, it's low enough that it would never effect your playing.
So, what's that mean, exactly?
It means "Why waste considerable time and effort on something that will most likely not improve your playing or your sound?" It means "Why spend time and money engineering and perfecting modifications that, in all likelihood, will increase the weight, complexity, or the cost of the instrument, without yeilding anything but "bragging rights"?
Sure, it could be done. But, would it be worth it? |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 2:08 pm
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| i thought the emmons counterforce changer system already solved this problem.....must not be that important if so many others spend huge bucks on other 'inferior' cabinet dropable models! |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 2:10 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Sure, it could be done. But, would it be worth it? |
Donny, I think it would be worth it, yes. Even if only for bragging rights. I agree with you that it is not the end-all; we get used to it, tune our guitars accordingly and live with it.
I seen one guitar mentioned (GFI??) with practically no drop, and it certainly did not increase in price.
My klunker has, as I said, very minimal amount of c.... that dreaded word ... and certainly not much sophisticated engineering went into that one!
I still assert that it is possible to make them with less or no drop without a huge outlay. So, yes, I say it could be done, and it would be worth it. |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Jan 2008 7:10 pm
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[quote="Bent Romnes"]Bill, it looks tome like some guitars have this rod already...the flat piece of steel going across the bottom of the body in the middle. I've seen it on the Emmons, Zums, Franklins
Bent, I was thinking of a round rod or rods that could be adjusted. After thinking about it I doubt it would work. Just thinking out loud.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Jan 2008 7:38 pm
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| i thought the emmons counterforce changer system already solved this problem.....must not be that important if so many others spend huge bucks on other 'inferior' cabinet dropable models! |
Precisely, Chris. (And that's an excellent observation on your part! ) |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 10:27 am
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I get the point to ignore cabinet drop if it's minor. I also get it that you can adjust your bar to deal with it. But why pretend like it doesn't exist? I have a couple of old guitars and they have some amount of cabinet drop. I love them so I play them. Would it be nice to have less drop....yes!
I guess if you've never played an old guitar you wouldn't think that cabinet drop was an issue and you probably don't get why some people like some older guitars. But I'm one that thinks some guitars sound different than others and it isn't just about the look of a laquer guitar. Anyway.......
I thought I read that someone had used an additional brace for the mid-section of the guitar. It went from the floor to the underside of the cabinet in order to help hold the soundboard in place when the pedal rods pulled down on the guitar. I thought it worked for that person. I'd like to hear if anyone tried that. How did it work.
It seems like many new guitars have a solid metal brace attached to the apron that helps support the soundboard. But on an older guitar there may not be room for that or it would require far to much reworking of the underside. |
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Tim Greene
From:
Athens Tennessee USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 12:02 pm
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| Ok I have a d-10 74pp emmons thats drops 8 cents or 2 hertz.I can tune around it but it tends to drive me nuts as some inversions aren't in tune.Ie minor position pedal a the 4th,6th,8th strings go flat.After reading this yesterday when I got home I tightened up my endplates,snugged the keyheads and made sure the changer allen head screws were tight.Checked tuning for drift and still had the 8 cent drop.I also noticed that any string that wasnt being pulled by a bellcrank started to drift as soon as I started pushing any pedal and was all the way down or flat before the pedal hit the travel stop.It doesnt take a lot of effort to engage my a or b pedal so I ruled out the cabinet dropping because of pedal tension.Next step was to back off my pedal stops about 1 1/2 turns and was suprised to see as I applied pressure on the pedal the string started to drift then when the finger hit the wood body the extra pressure backwards on the changer raised the string back very close to its correct pitch.I also realized this extra pressure on the changer finger would over time break something so I returned my pedal stops to their orginial position.I think the change in tension on the changer as a pedal is pushed causes the unpulled strings to go flat.I have some extra bellcranks so I might try putting 2 on pedal a for the 3rd and 6th string and 2 on a for 5th and 10th string. Or maybe just but a stomp box chorus and sound out of tune all the time.Any other ideals?? In some ways it doesnt matter but if I can hear it then it does right? Tim |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 12:07 pm
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Seems to me that somebody has loosened the neck screws, to try to get better tone.
NOTE:
If you're happy with the tone, be very careful if you tighten the neck screws. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 12:34 pm
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i'll give $100 for any pro model steel that anyone can't deal with because of cabinet drop!
there.. that should take care of that problem! |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 2:13 pm
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Chris, It's not so much that I can't deal with it..it's more like a beast I'd like to tame.
Surprisingly, I almost did on my home built.(2.5c drop on a bad day, one-half c on a good day) Yes...it varies! Can anybody tell me why?? |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 2:19 pm
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Richard...adjusting the neck screws you say...
You might get different tone that way?
I got them reefed down pretty tight (6 wood screws)
Is there a torque number to go by?
I know Ed Fulawka uses a torque wrench.
What is your suggestion?
Bent |
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Murnel Babineaux
From:
Mermentau, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 3:21 pm Cabinet Drop
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I got rid of the majority of cabinet drop by welding the changer to the aluminum neck. This is on an EMCI.
THanks,
Murnel Babineaux |
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Ken Williams
From:
Arkansas
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 5:52 pm
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I've seen a few 6 string electric guitars that when checked with a tuner, the pitch changes when you place your left hand around the neck, and apply a slight amount of downward pressure, as you would while playing. For some reason, it seems that intunation problems stand out more on steel than most other instruments.
As my tuning problems go, I don't think that cabinet drop would be at the top of my list. In my case, the list would be topped with simply being slightly off the fret or not having my ear trained properly to hear the proper pitch.
Ken |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2008 6:50 pm
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I don't think its a big problem, and certianly didn't
mean to start any argument's.
Sometimes when people talk about a problem you end up with a cure.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Jim Walker
From:
Headland, AL
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Posted 16 Jan 2008 1:36 am
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A fellow steeler once told me , "Just play the darn thing". Some guitars have more drop than others even within a single brand. So what? Is cabinet drop going to get me fired from my $100 Friday night gig? I DOUBT IT.  To me compensators means more stuff that can go wrong. Do I want to add a thousand bucks to the price of my guitar so my ear cannot detect the drop? NO. Wood or metal that doesn't flex? Not on this planet. A steel guitar made of a single diamond might be tough enough but kinda pricey. The answer? Spend time with your instrument, bond with it, learn it's characteristics, develop your tuning ear, PLAY AND ENJOY!
If you get bored, there is tons of reading on this subject. Search here in the older parts of the forum too. Some of it is really humorous!
http://steelguitarforum.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=intro
JW
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Jim Walker
From:
Headland, AL
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Posted 16 Jan 2008 2:05 am
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| Jim Walker wrote: |
| A steel guitar made of a single diamond might be tough enough but kinda pricey. |
Not to mention the tone would probably be REALLY bright. 
JW
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Show Pro D10, Session 400 |
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