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Topic: Pickup placement on steel guitars ? |
Norris Ashment
From:
Idaho Falls Idaho, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 3:11 pm |
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Can any one tell me why all pedal steel manufactures stick the pickups clear back by the bridge which is the the most toneless spot on any guitar. It works any amplifier to death to get a mellow tone with out as discribed as many players as that honky mid range sound. If you could not pick over top of a pickup Fender would never sold One Stratocaster. Some of the old fender steels had two pickups.
Just wondering.
Norris |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 6:10 pm
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Hi Norris,
It isn't clear back by the bridge its about 2 inches away. When I built my steel I took measurements of a ShoBud Superpro and placed the pickup on my guitar as such:measuring back from center of the shaft for the changer to the center of the pickup i.e. the center of the round magnets, should be 2 1/2 inches.
I checked with Ed Fulawka on this and he claims that if you deviate from a given placement by as little as 1/8th of an inch, you change the tone...towards the key head gives a mellower tone. Towards the changer gives more of a treble tone. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 6:29 pm
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| While my memory isn't as specific as I'd like it to be I recall that the average distance from the center of the changer finger to the center of the pickup was about 1.875" with variations of about 1/4" on the 35 or so guitars that Ed Packard and I measured when we did our comparisons awhile ago. It is true that moving the pickup slightly one way or the other causes a fairly dramatic difference in tone and I don't share the opinion that this is a toneless position. It seems to offer the best compromise for a single pickup position on the steel guitar with a 24-25" scale. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 6:39 pm Re: Pickup placement on steel guitars ?
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| Norris Ashment wrote: |
| Can any one tell me why all pedal steel manufactures stick the pickups clear back by the bridge which is the the most toneless spot on any guitar. |
Uhh, because that's where the vast majority of players seem to want them!!!
Seriously, I like smooth, full, jazzy tones sometimes, but very few other players do. Listen to straight guitarists, and here again, you find the vast majority like bright, twangy tones. Chet Atkins taught a whole generation of middle-aged listeners to appreciate nice, full, clean sound, but the majority of players wanted nothing to do with it. Likewise, in the steel world, Curly Chalker led a brief charge into the midst of "twangydom", but he had few followers.
So you see, John Q. Player wanted twang - slicing, sharp, sizzling, snappy scimitars of treble...
...and now, that's what we're stuck with.
Any questions? |
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Norris Ashment
From:
Idaho Falls Idaho, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 6:40 pm pickup placement
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| Thanks Bent I think you just made my case and point. Most all guitars that is where the rear pickup is located,so why make the amp have fight it to make a more full range sound. I didn't mean jammed back to the bridge. |
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Norris Ashment
From:
Idaho Falls Idaho, USA
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 6:58 pm pickup placement
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| Donny, I think maybe you hit right on the the head. Back when I was young I remembered the the steel as the soft pretty part of a song. I can make this happen on my Gretsch or my strats but not on my ZB,shobud,msa with out fighting it out with all my amps. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Jan 2008 11:04 pm
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I had a pickup for a while that I could slide around under the the strings to change the tone. It wasn't very useful as a tonal tool. I found that by working on my picking I could control the tone much better. My Rickenbacher lap steel has its pickup near the bridge and its gets as fat and round a tone as you could ever want.
I have watched guys like Paul Franklin go from a full, rich, bassy sound to a Mooney twang just by changing there mind.
If you want to do it there are quite a few builders that would happy to build you a 2 pickup pedal steel. There are plenty of guys that could put a second pickup in your steel if you want also. It's a fair bit of work but it could be done. It might be interesting to find out if another pickup would do the trick for you.
_________________
Bob |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 3:31 am
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Left
Last edited by basilh on 4 Jan 2008 12:31 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 3:37 am p/u
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| In my opinion only here, I believe it's the player, not so much as the pick up or placement of it. I find the particular sounds I want by picking the strings at different distances away from the p/u or close to it. For the west coast or old Fender sounds, I usually play close to a p/u to get it. For the smooth mellow tone, I move away until it sounds like I want it to. For the Hughey type tone(my favorite), I tend to find it by getting closer to a p/u but not as close as the west coast stuff from years ago. I also prefer humbuckers for the quietness. I also wonder about the type of solder that is used when installing p/u's. Is there different types or is it all about the same? Probably a dumb question but I'm just curious if the solder used might affect tone. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 3:44 am
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Right
Last edited by basilh on 4 Jan 2008 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 3:57 am
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And Center
Last edited by basilh on 4 Jan 2008 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 4:08 am
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Vacated awaiting "authoritative" Response !
Last edited by basilh on 4 Jan 2008 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 7:05 am
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What Baz said. He describes the entire scenario beautifully.
FWIW adding a second pickup gives you an incredible range of tonal options, and the sustain drop-off is not all that noticable on the front pickup. My Fender 400 is a two-pickup modded-monster and it gave me a whole new range of sounds when I added the second one. I'll be adding second pickups to both necks of my 10000 as well...and I'm not too sure I won't do the same thing to my GFI Ultra.
Traditional players may like the one-trick pony of a single pickup and no tone control (you can change sound with your right hand, but only within the parameters of the guitar's capabilities) but many who are refugees from the 6-string world feel crippled by the lack of multiple pickups and controls.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 7:54 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
.
FWIW adding a second pickup gives you an incredible range of tonal options, and the sustain drop-off is not all that noticable on the front pickup. My Fender 400 is a two-pickup modded-monster and it gave me a whole new range of sounds when I added the second one. I'll be adding second pickups to both necks of my 10000 as well...and I'm not too sure I won't do the same thing to my GFI Ultra.
Traditional players may like the one-trick pony of a single pickup and no tone control (you can change sound with your right hand, but only within the parameters of the guitar's capabilities) but many who are refugees from the 6-string world feel crippled by the lack of multiple pickups and controls. |
Could not have said this better. Spot on Sliff. I plan on adding another pickup to every lap and pedal guitar I own that I can do so. I have a couple of six string pedal guitar (I am the prime example of the 6 string refugee). One will have a fixed rear and a sliding front pickup and the other will have two and possibly three.
Multiple pickups on Pedal Steel guitars as a norm is long overdue in my opinion. Even though it has been done before, it is baffling to me why players have not been more interested in expanding the tonal character of the steel to make it fit in with different musical settings. A more mellower tone would make the steel fit in to situations where that back pickup twang is just so out of place. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 8:44 am
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I had an old Msa that I put two pickups in an place them so they measured the same as my Les Paul with the Idea I would get that hard Les sound. All I can say is that it sounded different not better and the sustain dropped off. You really can't judge by this because the old MSAs were crap when it came to sustain. I went to a single coil pickup in the original placement and replaced that greasy steel rod in the changer with a dry aluminum rod and the sustain and sound was great.
I've replaced the changer rods in most of my Steels with different medals and I found it changed the tone more than any other factor. The hard aluminum rod change was an improvement in tone and sustain in every instance and it is a very inexpensive mod. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 9:17 am
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| Bo Legg wrote: |
and replaced that greasy steel rod in the changer with a dry aluminum rod and the sustain and sound was great.
I've replaced the changer rods in most of my Steels with different medals and I found it changed the tone more than any other factor. The hard aluminum rod change was an improvement in tone and sustain in every instance and it is a very inexpensive mod. |
Bo. Are you talking about the changer rods from the changer to the bellcrank or the changer shaft rod that goes through all the cams and fingers? In your description you say "rod" in the first sentance and "rods" in the next. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 9:53 am Two pickups are alive and well - I think
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Bill Hatcher et al:
An authoritative dissertation on this subject could be given by none other than our own Bobbe Seymour. He has a Jackson guitar that's only a few months old with TWO pickups and appropriate switching for either, both, phase etc. I wouldn't presume to be able to describe it myself. Bobbe's input would be the answer to many of your questions.
Come in, Bobbster! |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:00 am
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Bill Hatcher...
| Quote: |
| Bo. Are you talking about the changer rods from the changer to the bellcrank or the changer shaft rod that goes through all the cams and fingers? In your description you say "rod" in the first sentance and "rods" in the next. |
I was referring to the changer shaft rod that goes through all the cams and fingers in more than one Steel Guitar...thus the term rods. Sorry I didn't make it clear.
Last edited by Bo Legg on 4 Jan 2008 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:05 am pickup position, et al
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Sorry 'bout that.
Last edited by ed packard on 4 Jan 2008 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:06 am pickup position, et al
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http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/?start=all
This link will get you the data on 33 or so PSGs measured at Jim Palenscar's shop two or so years ago. Pickup electrical and positional measurements were made, and the resulting Frequency Spectral Analysis vs. time (sustain) shots were taken.
Lots of other measurements, and construction materials/methods are provided. The photos, lists, and FSA shots are all on the above site.
The various summations of two multitapped pickups are also shown for the beast.
Enjoy...if you have the patience. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:18 am
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Richard Damron...
| Quote: |
Bill Hatcher et al:
An authoritative dissertation on this subject could be given by none other than our own Bobbe Seymour. |
I'm sorry sometimes I forget my place and post my non-authoritative dissertation on a subject. |
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Norris Ashment
From:
Idaho Falls Idaho, USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:52 am pickup placement
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OK maybe toneless was a bad choice of words but it got my point across in a bad sort of way. It does seem that not all are happy with the limited options.What may perfect for one don't mean it fits all. Yes I've looked these things with a O SCOPE and a whole room full of the best test equipment money can buy, thats what I did for 35 years. Still the best test is to plugem in and see what happens to your ears on some one elses amp that may not be the perfect steel guitar amp thats not loaded down with a rack mount full of stuff that look like a dash board off a 747 or 2 or 3 fender twin reverbs all set up different.
Guitar players have so many more choises till they find what what works for them. |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:52 am
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Bo,
You said you got rid of the "Greasy" steel rod. I just took apart the changer on my sho bud and cleaned out what looked like motor oil caked on the rod and fingers. After three hours of cleaning I put it back together and thought the guitar had better sustain. I could be just imagining it but I think it sounds better.
What did you mean by greasy? Does Aluminium require less grease or oil? I assume that the tone difference was from the metal used but I was curious if there was something else. |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 10:57 am
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Bo Legg -
My wording in the above post was prompted only by the notion that I consider Bobbe a friend and respect his judgement immensely. Didn't mean to stomp on anyone's boots here but only to provide another avenue to information. I also have a nasty tendancy to get "wordy" now and then. Hope I didn't misread your post.
Richard |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 4 Jan 2008 11:26 am
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I don't understand why when designing instruments they don't allow for you to slide the pickup into any position you want. In the early days of pickups they sold add-on pickup assemblies that you could use to convert old acoustic archtops into electric instruments, and those assemblies almost always allowed you to slide the pickup into different positions.
Failing that, a lot of steel guitarists have changed their pickups or have added additional pickups. Unfortunately most pedal steel guitars nowadays are designed with a metal part taking up the space between the fingerboard and the bridge, so you would have to either cut into that or fabricate another part. |
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