World Trade Center Retaliation

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

Chas made some really good points. It would actually be in the interest of the terrorists that we overreact in a military fashion, cause a lot of Arab civilian casualties, and give other Arab nations who have only a tentative relationship with the USA reason to hate us. So if we go in with a wide-sweep approach, it will come back to haunt us.

Remember, a Muslim who dies by the enemy’s hand see himself going straight to heaven as a participant in Jihad (holy war). So if the terrorists set off a huge retaliatory strike by the US against Muslim nations, the losses triggered by their own actions are somewhat tempered in their view because their brethren go to heaven. Their remaining brethren are then also much angrier at us, and the overall movement gathers strength. On the other hand, if the USA somehow surgically excises only the terrorists responsible for the 9/11/01 attacks, there are others to fill their shoes. Bin Laden is not the only one, the experts say. He is wealthy, visible, charismatic, and successful, but not alone. He is not the head of a snake--this is a many-headed beast. We are indeed between a rock and a hard place.

The terrorists are also extremely emboldened right now. They just proved to themselves and to the world that they can achieve a massive success. They are absolutely drunk with that success. I’m sure they’re convinced that if this one effort worked, so will the next. So it seems likely there will be more. Or at least more attempts. The stated goal of the terrorists is to kill any and all Americans, anytime, anywhere, by any means. Even if they die doing it. I dread a piece of doomsday hardware somehow getting into their hands.

We must also remember that the vast majority of Muslims and other middle easterners in this country have absolutely nothing to do with all this, so we must not paint them all with the same brush. There are only a few, but it only takes a few.

We have never faced a challenge like this before. If you are one who prays, pray for our leaders to be exceedingly wise in their decisions. There is little room for error.

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 16 September 2001 at 11:22 AM.]

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

As bOb said,,,it is a CANCER,,,,you can cut the tumor out,,,but if the cancer has spread
the cancer cells multiply.

The terroist clan is deeper than we know and they are sleezy but competant ground fighters
Its easy to say Bomb em,,,not sure that alone is the Cure....Im praying for our service men. I would like to see all those people (the guilty ones) burn in the fire,even that is too good for them.. PS

GREAT POST BILL L. you are on the MONEY

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 16 September 2001 at 03:56 PM.]

Louie Hallford · From: denison tx

Seems strange that Bin Laden can convince his followers that they need to give their lives for his cause so they can make an early exit for heaven.

In doing so ,he is exposing his greatest weakness.He is a COWARD holed up in a cave somewhere, and when the heat is turned up you can bet he will be caught running ,trying to avoid that early trip to heaven.

Robert · From: Chicago

Friends:
I agree with Bill Llewellyn's post - we are in a sticky situation, and I believe we have to be careful that we don't fall right into this trap that has been set for us. It would serve the radical Islam movement for us to unleash on moderate Islamic states and innocent civilians all of our wrath in a huge dose, in that it would radicalize a whole new crop of individuals who are currently "on the fence" in those communities, and it might create the illusion in the United States that "we took our revenge and now things can go back to normal" - an attitude that we can ill afford now or at any time in the future. Things cannot and should not return to the way they were before - call it a memorial to the 5000+ brothers and sisters that we lost - but let's leave a part of our old way of life behind: the conceit that our position in the world - our might, our wealth - will protect us always, and that bad things can only happen to bad people. Instead, I suggest that patience and stealth be two qualities that we display as we bury our dead, heal our wounds, and align our allies. Somebody struck us when our guard was down and achieved (in their sick terms) a stunning success - they're goading us to react immediately, and in predictable ways. I hope that we aren't so predictable - and that we descend on them like a thief in the night, at a time that suits our purposes and the purposes of all people of good will in all corners of the globe, but particularly our allies and future allies in the Middle East. Can we kill a thousand to avenge five thousand? Will relatively fewer deaths solve our immediate problems and help head off future problems? Maybe - if it's the right thousand, and let's not get squeamish about the killing if a year from now we're just getting started. It took the Israeli Mossad nearly twenty years to avenge the 1972 Munich massacre - I'm afraid we'll have to measure our anger out in similar doses, and nurse it for a long haul.

Rob

[This message was edited by Robert on 16 September 2001 at 05:00 PM.]

[This message was edited by Robert on 16 September 2001 at 05:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by Robert on 16 September 2001 at 05:24 PM.]

Mike Cass · Posted 16 Sep 2001 4:56 pm

I am deeply saddened by the events of last Tuesday.On a personal note, I lost 2 very good friends in the Pentagon attack.I remain worried about a number of friends who live & work in Manhattan.
The paralells to the start of our involvement in WW2 are obvious.
Much has been said in earlier posts about the attitude we should have regarding our fellow citizens.
One thing to keep in mind.....this terrorist network is firmly entrenched in our land & around the world. Obviously, they came here, lived, worked & conspired right under our noses.On Tue. afternoon I left my home to try to run some small errands.At a local store I saw & heard a group of Middle Eastern gentelmen laughing, high 5ing & generally congratulating each other.
I understand enough of their dilect(a must in my neighborhood) to get the gist of what they were saying.I was shocked that they could have that attitude, however it taught me an important lesson.......they DO hate us & have used the good will & opprutunities this country offered them to disrupt our way of life & kill our fellow citizens in the most bloodthirsty manner.I believe this is a time for heightened awareness of ones surroundings & scrutiny of those who pose a threat to our very existence.
I called a friend of mine @ the local FBI office & informed him of what I'd seen.He said that they knew all about that particular shop & its regular patrons......He checked a list of liscense plate numbers with me & we found that most of the usual fellows were present there.....all of them in this country on educational visas & living in hotels owned by their fellow countrymen.Driving cabs, operating convenience stores etc....
living off the Govt by way of subsidies & quite possibly with ulterior motives.
What I'm trying to say is,keep your ears & eyes open & if something doesnt look right to you, report it.
It is a shame that in this day & time we may have to revert to informing on our fellow countrymen, but if plans are thwarted & lives are saved, so be it.Remember, these people hate us & have vowed to kill as many of us as they can & THEY are already here !!!
A good idea for those who who wish to stay informed is to regularily read the "Foriegn Intelligence Digest". It is available in most libraries & bookstores.It offers a list of names & pictures of known subversives in addition to very informative articles on what is going on in the world that most of us never give a thought to.Another publication is "Jane's Intlligence",
a similarily minded publication.
I remember the words of an American patriot..."Eternal Vigilance is the price of Freedom"........
Also..."Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it"...
My condolences to any of you who like myself,have suffered a loss in these despicable acts.

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 16 September 2001 at 06:07 PM.]

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Remember the "Cole" and the US Navy personnel murdered by one of those terrorists "ramming" it with a small boat?

They got away with that, so that apparently encouraged them to "ram" the buildings in NY and DC with airplanes.

The death toll keeps escalating with each new attack.

If we let them get away with it again, what will they "ram" next time....our municipal water supply with "millions" of deaths rather than "thousands"?

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

as Merle Haggard so eloquently put it:

"They love our milk an' honey
But they preach about some other way of livin'
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me!"

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

In a related story, a drunk in somewhere like Cleveland crashed his car into the side of a Mosque. That'll teach 'em not to mess with us.

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

post deleted for the sake of political correctness

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 17 September 2001 at 07:49 PM.]

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

Did I miss something here? Is the attack on mosques suddenly funny? There have been hundreds of attacks all over the continent, not only against Arab-Americans and Arab-Canadians, but against Sikhs and anyone else whose skin color or style of dress the pig-ignorant considered sufficient evidence of their complicity in last week's tragedy to justify destroying their businesses and places of worship, or even killing innocent people. Sorry guys, I don't see the humor here any more than I would if similar comments were made about the fire-bombing of a black church in Mississippi. Thanks to all those who've spoken for tolerance in this discussion. Indiscriminate rage has a way of catching everyone in its net in a real hurry.

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

You're right Ian, bombing mosques and related violence etc. is not funny, and that was not the spirit in which the comment was made - shortcoming of this written format - however, what also wasn't funny were some of the cabbies (think we could guess where they're from?) at the Edmonton airport dancing and whooping for joy at the news last Tuesday - but I guess it was to them

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 17 September 2001 at 09:42 PM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Ian, it's not funny, it's pathetic

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

This is the editorial in this weeks Time by Lance Morrow.

The Case for Rage and Retribution

For once, LET'S HAVE NO "GRIEF COUSELORS" standing by with banal consolations, as if the purpose, in the midst of all this, were merely to make everyone feel better as quickly as possible. We shouldn't feel better.

For once, let's have no fatuous rhetoric about "healing." Healing is inappropriate now, and dangerous. There will be time later for the tears of sorrow.

A day cannot live in infamy without the nourishment of rage. Let's have rage.

What's needed is a unified, unifying Pearl Harbor sort of purple American fury-a ruthless indignation that doesn't leak away in a week or two, wandering off into Prozac-induced forgetfulness or into the next media sensation (O.J. ... Elian ... Chandra ...) or into a corruptly thoughtful relativism (as has happened in the recent past, when, for example, you might hear someone say, "Terrible what he did, of course, but, you know, the Unabomber does have a point doesn't he, about modern technology?")

Let America explore the rich reciprocal possibilities of the FATWA. A policy of focused brutality does not come easily to a self-conscious, self-indulgent, contradictory, diverse, humane nation with a short attention span. America needs to relearn a lost discipline, self-confident relentlessness-and to relearn why human nature has equipped us all with a weapon (abhorred in decent peacetime societies) called hatred.

As the bodies are counted, into the thousands and thousands, hatred will not, I think, be a difficult emotion to summon. Is the medicine too strong? Call it, rather, a wholesome and intelligent enmity-the sort that impels even such a prosperous, messily tolerant organism as America to act. Anyone who does not loathe the people who did these things, and the people who cheer them on, is too philosophical for decent company.

It's a practical matter, anyway. In war, enemies are enemies. You find them and put them out of business, on the sound principle that that's what they are trying to do to you. If what happened on Tuesday does not give Americans the political will needed to exterminate men like Osama bin Laden and those who conspire with them in evil mischief, then nothing ever will and we are in for a procession of black Tuesdays.

This was terrorism brought to near perfection as a dramatic form. Never has the evil business had such production values. Normally, the audience sees only the smoking aftermath-the blown-up embassy, the ruined barracks, the ship with a blackened hole at the waterline. This time the first plane striking the tower acted as a shill. It alerted the media, brought cameras to the scene so tht they might be set up to record the vivid surreal bloom of the second strike ("Am I seeing this?") and then-could they be such engineering geniuses, so deft at demolition?-the catastrophic collapse of the two towers, one after the other, and a sequence of panic in the streets that might have been shot for a remake of 'The War of the Worlds' or for 'Independence Day'. Evil possesses an instinct for theatre, which is why in an era of gaudy and gifted media, evil may vastly magnify its damage by the power of horrific images.

It is important not to be transfixed. The police screamed to the people running from the towers, "Don't look back!" -a bibical warning against the power of image. Terrorism is sometimes described (in a frustrated, oh-the-burdens-of-great-power tone of voice) as "asymetrical warfare." So What? Most of history is a pageant of asymmetries. It is mostly asymmetries that cause history to happen-an obscure Schickelgruber nearly destroys Europe; a mere atom, artfully diddled, incinerates a city. Elegant perplexity puts too much emphasis on the "asymmetrical" side of the phrase and not enough on the fact that it is, indeed, real warfare. Asymmetry is a concept. War is, as we see, blood and death.

It is not a bad idea to repeat a line from the 19th century French anarchist thinker Pierre-Joseph Proudhon: "The fecundity of the unexpected far exceeds the prudence of statesmen." America, in the spasms of a few hours, became a changed country. It turned the corner, at last, out of the 1990s. The menu of American priorities was rearranged. The presidency of George W. Bush begins now. What seemed important a few days ago (in the media, at least) became instantly trivial. If Gary Condit is mentioned once in the next six months on cable television, I will be astonished.

During World War II, John Kennedy wrote home to his parents from the Pacific. He remarked that Americans are at theur best during very good times or very bad times; the in-between periods, he thought, cause trouble. I'm not sure that is true. Good times sometimes have a tendency to make Americans squalid.

The worst times, as we see, seperate the civilized of the world from the uncivilized. This is the moment of clarity. Let the civilized toughen up, and let the uncivilized take their chances in the game they started.

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

Greg, Chas.: My comments weren't intended as a personal attack, and I hope they weren't construed that way. I had no sense that you were in any way endorsing the terrorism that's now being unleashed against other segments of the American population under the guise of retribution for last week's tragedies. I just wanted to draw attention to the severity of these occurences, and the threat they pose to the entire population if they're not beaten back. The air disasters have occured a time when basic democratic rights have come under heavy attack from some quarters, and these same people are now wrapping themselves in the flag and screaming vengeance against anyone they define as the enemy. In this regard, sorry Bobby, I have to diasagree when you say this is not a time for bad-mouthing Jerry Falwell and Co. When someone uses an unfathomable tragedy to try to whip up hatred against whole segments of the population, I think it's our obligation to denounce him in the strongest possible terms.

Ian McLatchie · From: Sechelt, British Columbia

Sorry, acidentally submitted twice.

[This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 18 September 2001 at 04:26 AM.]

Joe Casey · From: Weeki Wachee .Springs FL (population.9)

We had a Doctor at our areas largest Hospital make a statement to a group of other doctors that "America got what it deserved". The other Doctors some who were also of the muslim faith quickly stood up and almost belted him,and the hospital immediately had a hearing.But they didn't suspend him.This reached the Newspaper (St. Petersburg Times)The FBI and all local police,even the national news. A radio Talk show host called the doctor at his practice thus revealing his name to all. It turns out that this Doctor lives in a very laborate and expensive area ,Has had a large practice drives two Mercedes and puts down the Country that afforded all this wealth he has.The Hospital after over a thousand phone calls has suspended his practice and the doctor even has around the clock Police protection. My feeling is that any doctor who has sworn the oath to save lives and condones the attrocities that happened last week should not be trusted to treat any live thing.The other Doctors should be commended for acting immediately to the statement. Anyone wishing the articles on this I'd gladly fax. My point: there are 1500 hundred or so doctors in this community. 1500 and one hypocrite lets not judge all by one.

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CJC

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

Joe, good comments and I will add that such statements as quoted below are not made ONLY by non-Americans.

"...............We had a (Muslim) Doctor at our areas largest Hospital make a statement to a group of other doctors that "America got what it deserved"..............."

An American citizen made the following statement in a letters to the editor column of a San Francisco newspaper while my daughter was on life support from seven gunshots from a mass murderer in an office building there.

".......all those lawyers that were shot and killed "got what they deserved" because of the misery lawyers bring to people........"

Is one statement any more "un-American" than the other because of it's source, or because it refers to an occupation rather than ethnic origin?
Gene Jones

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 18 September 2001 at 07:05 AM.]

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

I find myself wondering how much America will really learn from this ghastly event. I believe we're very much in love with our own affluence and may try to patch the deep laceration we just experienced as quickly as we can so we can get back to our picnics and Bart Simson. We've forgotten how difficult it is to defend freedom and maintain a distance from despotism and anarchy. I fear we may succumb to national denial, even though we just suffered a full 10% of the total casualty count of the Viet Nam war in one morning. Right now I'm hearing and reading all sorts of self-proclamations about our latent strength and determination. A lot of those assertions are based on the past, however (WWII and such), where our national mindset was different. We're much more fragmented now, more interested in (and skilled at) spending our good fortune entertaining ourselves. And the problem we're facing isn't an external foe organized into tidy armies and compact cities which, if adequately weakened, will capitulate and let us go about our business. We now have to defend freedom in a whole new way. It will take prodigious creativity and effort (just like the terrorists have employed against us). It wil take solid and unifying leadership. It will take a lot of patience and the ability to tolerate numerous painful abrasions. And it will take a lot of prayer.

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 18 September 2001 at 10:15 AM.]

Bill Llewellyn · From: San Jose, CA

This is from a staff member at Bethlehem Bible College in Israel.

quote:
Dear Friends,

Many of you are writing and asking us to explain why some Palestinians
celebrated after hearing of the attacks of the hijacked plans on New York
and Washington. I first wish to express to all our American friends our
deep sorrow and disgust with these awful acts of terrorism. Our hearts go
out to those who suffered and continue to suffer. We have been taking our
deep frustration to God in prayer to seek his mercy on all who have been
touched by these satanic acts. A specially called prayer meeting was held
in our church in Jerusalem this morning at 10 o'clock to intercede on
behalf of what happened to the American people. This prayer meeting was
divided equally between Palestinian Christians and international persons
of different denominations.

Today (Wednesday) after the hijacks and subsequent crashes in New York,
Washington, and Pennsylvania, I went to my first college class of the new
academic year. I was anxious to ask my Palestinian students how they felt
about the attacks and the disaster that happened in the United States.
The reason for my anxiety is that I watched a CNN report showing
Palestinians celebrating after getting word about the disaster. My
students unanimously condemned the attacks and expressed feelings of shock
and horror. I was relieved because many of these students come from the
town of Beit Jala that has experienced months of bombing, devastation, and
most recently, an Israeli incursion into their town. I found out that
although some Palestinians, upon hearing the first breaking news reports,
celebrated the attacks, many of them regretted their rash reaction as soon
as they understood the scope and magnitude of the attack. After my class
finished, I went to the market place in Bethlehem. Everywhere I went, I
asked people what they thought about the attacks. I could not find one
Palestinian in Bethlehem, Christian or Muslim, who expressed joy over the
heinous assaults. I returned home with the conclusion, that while a few
Palestinians gloated at the misfortune of America, the vast majority of
Palestinians are shocked, horrified and disgusted. Palestinians who
gloated over the pain of Americans have caused great harm to all
Palestinians. Unfortunately, the media does not know how to focus on the
millions of Palestinians who grieved silently as they watched the horrible
scenes of death and destruction on their TV screens.

Yasser Arafat expressed the feelings of most Palestinians when he said
that he is shocked and utterly grieved about the attacks. He also said
that he is willing to cooperate with the United States in catching the
perpetrators and bring them to justice. It is very important for
Americans to understand that though Palestinians perceive the US policy in
the Middle East as one that constantly compromises Palestinian legitimate
rights and national aspirations, the vast majorities of Palestinians do
not hate the American people and do not wish them harm.

While the news of some ignorant Palestinians celebrating these malicious
acts is troubling, our greatest concern and fervent prayer is directed
towards the healing of those who have suffered so much loss and pain as a
result of this madness. Let us seek God's mercy and wisdom that the evil
in this world will not crush the good. This is a time for us to seek God's
righteousness, forgiveness, justice, and mercy.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Ian wrote:

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Thanks for posting that letter, Bill. I was struck by how shaken Arafat was when he was cornered by the press after the bombing. Later I saw a photo of him giving blood. A media event, to be sure, but the intended symbolism is clear. Palestine, and the Islamic community, hates what has happened here. They grieve with us.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

I took out my post, but Greg had already posted and it probably had at least some thing to do with what I had written. SO I'll put it back in, but remove some of the bitterness.

Greg Simmons · From: where the buffalo (used to) roam AND the Mojave

Arafat apparently has Parkinson's Disease, maybe that's why he was shaking.

chas smith R.I.P. · From: Encino, CA, USA

Ian, I didn't take it as a personal attack and I appreciate and share your outrage.
Out here we have so many shootings, they barely make the news. One recently that did, was one where the store clerk, who was of Indian descent and was wearing the traditional headgear, was shot and killed and what made the news is that the cash register was untouched.

I know that the Sikhs and Hindus, as well as others, have this as an integral part of their religion, but these are extraordinary times and it may be prudent not to exercise all of our religious freedoms for a while.

Dirk B · From: Harrisburg, MO, USA

I like what Bill said;

"I find myself wondering how much America will really learn from this ghastly event. I believe
we're very much in love with our own affluence and may try to patch the deep laceration we
just experienced as quickly as we can so we can get back to our picnics and Bart Simson.
We've forgotten how difficult it is to defend freedom and maintain a distance from
despotism and anarchy. "

and....

"We're much more fragmented now, more
interested in (and skilled at) spending our good fortune entertaining ourselves. And the
problem we're facing isn't an external foe organized into tidy armies and compact cities
which, if adequately weakened, will capitulate and let us go about our business. "

Maybe the terrorists' biggest failing is in not making clear what this "punishment" is supposed to teach us and why we deserve it in the first place.

Is it because we are western, secular, and decadent? Because of our support for Israel? Because of perceived infractions commited by us in places like Iraq, Iran & Libya? I think all of us vaguely think that the attack has to do with these things, but we don't really understand exactly what it is we've done wrong.

I too wonder what we will learn, and hope that we can grow by what appears to be an arbitrary act of violence. It is hard to see what good large military force will do with an enemy that hides in caves in the remotest terrain on earth, that the Soviet Union couldn't budge -- and against a people who will create new young terrorists to replace the ones we are able to eliminate.

[This message was edited by Dirk B on 18 September 2001 at 11:22 AM.]

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