Banjo roll

Bob Moore · From: N. Rose, New York

I have a question. Do you play a dobro with the same roll that a banjo uses. I got into a dicusssion about this. I thought that they were two different styles of playing. Any help? Thanks Bob

Norbert Dengler · From: germany

hi bob,
the five string banjo has a 5th string also called drawn string that makes it`s roll patterns unique.

in other words, where you have the deepest string on the dobro that you pick with your thumb you have the highest string on the banjo the high G.
so it`s hard to compare.

fact is that you use basically three kinds of rolls
either on banjo and dobro, the forward roll, the backward roll and the alternating roll.
you also commonly use three fingers, thumb, index and middle.

there`s even some exeptions like brother oswald or tut taylor who use a flatpick to play the dobro.

Bob Moore · From: N. Rose, New York

Hi Norbert thanks for the reply. I never even noticed that a roll style playing was done on a dobro. On a banjo it is noticable. The dobro playing I have listened to was mostly single note melody and some harmony notes. Again thanks for the reply. Bob

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

If I thought about it I wouldn't be able to play it. I mix up all the styles. My fingers figure it out, I don't. Whoa!

For instance, on the guitar you can thumb-pick the melody on the bass strings and roll on the fingers, as Maybelle Carter used to do, or you can pick the melody with the fingers and follow on the bass with the thumbpick, as Merle Travis used to do. And you can change from one style to another in the middle of a number without stopping.

There are several banjo styles. In addition to the bluegrass styles there's also frailing, where you pick the melody with the thumb and strum with the fingers, and many folk styles. I think of the 5-string banjo as 4+1. Using this nomenclature I also have banjos 4, 4+1, 6, 6+1, and 12. Don't forget that the most common banjo for band music is 4 string. It's usually played with a plectrum, but you can also pick it. Then there's the banjolele, which has 4 strings and is the size of an ukelele, and the banjoline, which has 4 double-courses and is tuned like a mandoline.

With all those picking styles in my head I don't have time to figure which is which, it just happens, and I also use these styles on pedal steel from time... I can't help it... Very Happy

Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

A lot of people drone on the 1 string (thin d) the way you would drone on the little string of the banjo. I think that bluegrass dobro styles are pretty similar to bluegrass banjo except where the drone string is located.
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Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Bob I have played both Dobro and 5 string banjo for 40 years. Since the first 4 strings on both are the same tuning, treat them the same. Forward rolls, backward rolls, reverse rolls, double thumbs hits, etc. Do not let the drone string thing throw you, it is only unique to the banjo.

Larry Behm
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Charlie Wallace · From: Pioneertown, California, USA

I use the banjo rolls (there are several variations) consistently on the Dobro. I learned them from the classic book "Earl Scruggs and the 5-String Banjo" then converted them to fit the Dobro. In it's simplest form for a Dobro tuned to GBDGBD (low to high), the forward roll is:
1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2
Each note is the same length and it all adds up to an 8 count. (Eight 1/16th notes)
1 = thumb playing the fifth fret on the D (4th string)
2 = first finger playing the G (3rd string) open
3 = middle finger playing the B (2nd string) open
I highly recommend getting the book and studying Chapter 4, "The Anatomy of Scruggs-Style Picking".

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

The best person to answer this is Bobby Lee who is a banjo afficianado extraordinaire. Very Happy

Bob Moore · From: N. Rose, New York

Thanks guys for the help. I understand a little bit more now. Bob please close.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Please don't close it. Once closed it cannot be reopened, but this is a discussion still in its infantcy and goes far beyond the original question raised.

Tom Keller · From: Greeneville, TN, USA

It seems to me, that the modern style dobro players Douglas, Ickes, Khors,Wechter, Hall etc do not play nearly as much in the roll based Buck Graves, Mike Auldrige style. They tend to play more hammer on pull off scale kind of things with a roll only occasionally happening. YMMV

Bob Moore · From: N. Rose, New York

Bob please keep this open by request. I didn't know that this was that interesting of a topic. Thanks Bob Moore

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

The modern guys actually play a lot of rolls, but the hammers and pulloffs are often mixed in. One often-played roll used by them and most bluegrass players is based on the C chord at the 5th fret, alternating between 4-3-2 and 3-2-1 with the first string open using a forward roll. They'll also do a descending banjo-type lick using a combo of open and closed strings around the 5th and 7th frets with a more backwards-roll.

All the "big" guys mix in a little of everything. Listen to Douglas play Cincinnati Rag (kind of a signature instrumental for him in bluegrass settings) and you'll hear tons of rolls mixed in with hammer/pulloffs.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Since this is a dobro topic, I've moved it to "Steel Without Pedals".
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Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

What Jim said,,I believe that the rolls + hammerons and pulloffs are what distinguish a "Dobro" sound from a "lapsteel" sound. Using the open strings in g tuning with the bar moving keeps the chord in a state of flux while still retaining its key center. when using roles with that technique it creates a really pretty cascading arpeggio sound. I use that heavily in my music. I played Dobro before I started dabbling with the banjo, and I found the techniques transfer pretty well.
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Rob Anderlik · From: Chicago, IL

Wasn't Josh Graves' claim to fame that he was the first player to apply Earl Scruggs 3 finger banjo roll to the dobro?

In any event, although the modern players - Douglas, Ickes, Kohrs et. al play a lot of single string stuff/hammer-on's & pull-off's; the roll - in all of it's variations - is a HUGE part of standard bluegrass dobro technique.

I've been told that where banjo rolls are generally very specific ("play it like Earl") there is (or can be) a lot of variation in approach to rolls between different dobro players.

In addition to rolls as a basic rhythm technique, they are powerful technique which can used in conjuntion with single string melodies/licks, generally in sections where you want to sustain a phrase for a few moments before moving on. The difference here is rolling two or three notes as opposed to an entire chord (more like an arpeggio) For example, a really common place to do this would be playing a fretted D note (3rd fret of 2nd string) and open D note (1st string). The key to this stuff is mostly in the right hand, where some folks play 2 finger rolls and others play 3 finger rolls.

If anyone is interested I would be willing to host some video clips demonstrating different approaches to play dobro rolls on my web site.

Regards,
Rob Anderlik

Charley Wilder · From: Dover, New Hampshire, USA

Rob Anderlik · From: Chicago, IL

Charles:

Thanks for posting your reply. It does makes sense that banjo rolls can be as varied as dobro rolls. Since I don't play banjo I didn't have a clue and was just going on what I was told during a lesson some time ago.

Regards,
Rob

Robert C. McKee · From: Ohio, USA

ok, i know this is for dobro, which I also play, but for just a little clarity on the 5 string banjo, the 5th string is only a drone string through the first 5 frets. After that, a lot of us take advantage and fret the 5th string the rest of the way up the neck, (not always, just a lot of the time). But...they always told me the best way to tune a banjo was with a pair of wire cutters. Were people trying to tell me something??? Also, some guys lower their high E on their guitars to a D. Now, the first 4 strings on the guitar are the same as the first 4 on a dobro, and a banjo. Hope I said that right.

Steve Norman · From: Seattle Washington, USA

Also the best banjo mute is a 10 pound hammer
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Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

Steel Guitar World magazine, published in the early to mid-1990s, ran a column by Joe Wright called Basic Rolls that was very useful. I have 'em up in the attic somewhere but if someone has those issues handy to post or mail to Bob I bet it would answer a lot of questions. I think all good players - Dobro, lap, or pedal steel - have a set of rolls in their back pocket for the right tune. There are some Bluegrass tunes that are so speedy your only option is to cover the chord progression via rolls (which is really just guitar lingo for arpeggios). A signature sound of Jerry Douglas' early playing was the use of lightening fast rolls played in new ways - such as up the neck in combination with open strings. People picked up more on his hammer & pull off licks but the rolls were there too.

Peter Jacobs · From: Northern Virginia

I incorporate a lot of rolls in my lap steel playing, since I played banjo for about 25 years before discovering lap slide a few years ago. There really is a lot of variety to right-hand banjo technique.

I often use "Reno style", which is alternating your thumb and index finger to emulate a flatpick, as well as melodic style, which uses a combination of open and "fretted" strings to get a cascade of notes.

Standard banjo technique says you generally don't use the same right hand finger for two notes in a row (it's a rule that gets broken a lot, but it's one of the key reasons banjo players can get that speed and fluidity).

For better or worse, I put a lot of banjo into my lap steel playing - it's probably a limitation, but I just tell people that's my "style" Winking

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Robert C. McKee · From: Ohio, USA

Mr. Brookes, I stand corrected 7 times. Very nice pics.

Bob Moore · From: N. Rose, New York

Thanks guys I am really enjoying and learning alot. Keep it up. Bob

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