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Topic: E9th Pedal 3 - Part 8 - Three Incredibly Beautiful Chords! |
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Chuck Thompson
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 2:49 pm |
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| purdy - really purdy |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 3:25 pm
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Very nice Greg. Your second chord is an A7 with a flatted ninth and thirteenth, or A13 b9. The first chord might then be analyzed as an E minor ninth rather than a G maj 7 because it's basically what we call a two five lick. That is to say... II-7, V7, I maj . In this case altered tensions have been added to the two and five chords but it's still a two five one progression. Hope this helps and doesn't confuse.
Shef
ps- try sliding the second chord (A13 b9) up to the eighth fret, and then up to the eleventh, and then up to the fourteenth fret and then resolving to D major.
This sounds pretty cool. I use this alot in jazz playing. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 10:17 pm
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Thanks Mike! I was hoping the question mark I originally posted on the tab for that chord would bring some answers. I use that chord all over the place on standard guitar too. I just tried sliding it from fret 5 to 8, 11,14, 17 and it it pretty cool.
Another good lead in for the the key of D is to play that chord at 14, 11, 8, 5 then into D major to start a song. This is similar to what Buddy Emmons plays to start "I Love You Because".
Greg |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 25 Dec 2007 11:39 am
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Greg,
you're welcome. I also play the 13 b9 chord on guitar. This chord is similar to the diminished chord in the respect that it's a movable form up or down in minor thirds, and sounds good ascending ( or descending as you pointed out). I always enjoy your tablature posts, and appreciate all the effort you put in for us all. Thanks for sharing, and a Merry Christmas to you.
....................................................................................................................Mike |
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Rich Sullivan
From:
Nelson, NH 03457
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 3:33 pm
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Mike and Greg,
I hope this doesn't hijack an E9 discussion, but I play non-pedal, and one of the tunings I play allows the 13b9 chord in a straight-bar position. I also found inadvertantly that I could slide this up by minor thirds, and it sounded good, but I never understood why. After thinking about it, and analyzing the notes, I think it is because there is always the sound of a diminished chord embedded in the chord. And the new chords can still be analyzed as different extensions of the Dominant 7. I'm interested in your input though.
Here is the chord form I get in my tuning, based on a G13b9, then the subsequent chords after sliding it up by minor thirds.
(everything shown is low to high)
F Ab B E ( b7, b9, 3, 13)
Ab B D G (b9, 3, 5, 1)
B D F A# (3, 5, b7, #9)
D F Ab C# (5, b7, b9, #11)
And you can resolve to the tonic from any of these and it sounds good!
Rich
(Edited to correct typo)
Last edited by Rich Sullivan on 27 Dec 2007 3:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 7:24 pm
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Rich,
I am an idiot on this subject (as you will see form the following!) but what you've shown is pretty neat!
I'd always thought of the diminished as a b3, b5, b7 addded to the root note.
The 13b9 can be looked at as a taking for example a D maj with a Root, 5, Root, 3 and lowering the top 3 notes (5, Root, 3) so it's like a diminished with the Root note substituted for the dominant 7th. It does have a lot of the same notes.
Now it's Mike's or some else's turn to set this all straight.
Greg |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 26 Dec 2007 9:33 pm
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Rich,
Great voicing. You are indeed correct that the 13 b9 is in fact an altered dominant seventh that resembles a diminished chord hence it's ability to be moved up in minor thirds (or down in minor thirds) and you are also correct that any of the subsequent altered dominant sevenths that evolve when moving the 13 b9 chord up(or down) in minor thirds may always be resolved to a one chord.
Let's look at the G13 b9 voicing you gave us-
F Ab B E
Now look at an F diminished chord voicing-
F Ab B D
The first three note are identical, and that's why these chords sound very similar. They both also resolve to C major.
Notice also that the notes F Ab B D also spell a G7 b9 chord (without the root G)which again resolves to C major.
Your 13 b9 voicing is different than Greg's and sounds different than Greg's but both your voicing and his are legitimate 13 b9 voicings. The crucial thing with any of these voicings (particularly a dominant seventh headed for a one chord) is in knowing how to resolve that chord through proper voice leading. Greg's tab is in fact a wonderful example of perfect voice leading if you look at it carefully. I suspect I have not told you anything that you already didn't know. I guess I was merely confirming your findings. By the way, you wrote-D F Ab C# (5, 7, b9, #11)
That should be ..........(5, b7, b9, #11).
Greg,
The diminished chord consists of the root, b3, b5, and a double flatted seventh since it is built on minor thirds. I just think of the double flatted seventh as a sixth. So for example, a C diminished chord is C Eb Gb and Bbb or A. I hope I haven't made a total mess of your thread. Please keep up the good work, and remember that as long as it sounds right, that's what really counts! You sure as heck are no idiot, and I think you play some real nice steel. 
.............................................................................................................................Mike |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 6:37 am
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Mike,
We are saying the same thing on the diminished. When I said b7 (flat 7th) I was talking about flatting a Dominant 7th. That is the same as double flatting the major 7th and like you said, it's really a 6th note! Wow!
It's so much better for me to have someone show me a cool set of chords and how to apply them to a real song than to have a lot of theory. The theory really fascinates me though and sometimes it helps me transpose the chords and scales to different instruments.
Greg |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 27 Dec 2007 10:32 am
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Greg,
I agree with you. Theory can get a bit dreary( hey that rhymes!) I think it's always better to see how theory applies in a real song. By itself theory is just mathematics but when you see it's practical application in the context of a real song is where it becomes interesting, and that's where one really learns something. Sorry I misunderstood you on the flatted seventh thing.
Mike |
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John Simpson
From:
Nashville,TN
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Posted 20 Mar 2008 9:05 pm
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Greg,
Thank you for showing these beautiful voicings. I think the smoothest transitions
are the prettiest. |
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