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Topic: Tuning for cabinet drop ? |
Richard Tipple
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 10:06 am |
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Just wondering how to compensate when tuning with cabinet drop ?
I split the difference,,pedals up & pedals down tuning. I have my own tuning chart Ive made out to go by.
The cabinet drop is not excessive, but I can always hear that little (not quite perfect) note in there,,
I have soft pedal pulls, so I guess theres not much else I can do,,,,,is there 
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steelguitarguy.com |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 2:34 pm
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Richard,Bet you get a lot of opinions on this one.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 4:45 pm
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Richard,
Do the tempered tuning. Jeff Newman's tuning chart can be found at www.jeffran.com
Bent |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 4:52 pm
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Richard, conventional wisdom is to tune the open E's to 440 with the AB pedals "mashed," allowing them to go a bit sharp with no pedals, and tuning the rest from there. If the drop is severe, I would split the difference, a little sharp with no pedals, a bit flat with them in use.
Then, I would start looking for another guitar... 
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 6:30 pm
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| Jeff Newman's chart doesn't work. It only worked on Jeff Newman's guitar. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 6:39 pm
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I also tune my Es as above mentioned Pedals down.
I was taught this but didn't apply it for a few years while I used a Peterson tuner...which worked ok.
Chime in the Bs to the Es.
Truth be known different guitars are different and different bands are different.
Just look at what this subject has done to my face.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 22 Dec 2007 11:25 pm
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Mikey D's method works for me  |
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Mike Christensen
From:
Cook Minnesota
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 4:55 am cabinet drop
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| Kevin: I hope that was a tongue in cheek remark about Jeff's chart only working on Jeff's guitar.There are I think a lot of us that use that tuning that are unknowingly playing out of tune I guess.Now what should we do? I agree with Mike D. If cabinet drop is a problem that guitar should find a new home or at least get one that doesn't do that.IMHO. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 7:21 am
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| Jeff Newman's chart doesn't work. It only worked on Jeff Newman's guitar. |
Hmm..Kevin, it works on my guitar too |
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Antolina
From:
Dunkirk NY
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 12:27 pm
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Never had a problem with Jeff's charts. Methinks altogether too much empahsis is placed on this cabinet drop thing.
_________________
The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 12:43 pm
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| My experience over the years and watching the Grand Master players is that no one chart can tune all steel guitars. I agree with Mike D's method. Cabinet drop on the E's is a fact on the majority of steel guitars I've ever played. Emmons P/P being practically non existent. I can see tuning root E's sharp depending on the amount of cabinet drop. Any guitar with more than 5 cent drop I wouldn't play. Anything with less than that would be acceptable to me. I've played many guitars with 3-5 cent drop on them and its never been an audible factor because you can split the difference. I just don't agree with using anyone's chart to tune out a particular steel guitar. It needs to be tuned to itself. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 12:44 pm
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In response to RC Antolina's post,
I've never played one yet that didn't have any cabinet drop |
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Antolina
From:
Dunkirk NY
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 1:32 pm
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That's not what I said Richard. I said I think far too much is made of it. You guys are much more knowledgable than myself so I'm not gonna debate the issue. It was an opinion and nothing more.
_________________
The only thing better than doing what you love is having someone that loves you enough to let you do it.
Sho~Bud 6139 3+3
Marrs 3+4
RC Antolina |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 2:55 pm
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Of course, Jeff Newman's tuning charts are about more than cabinet drop. They're also his ideas of how to make chords sound in tune, because the major third that comes from the overtone series is different from the third that results from dividing the octave into twelve equal steps--Just Intonation versus Equal Temperament, blah blah...Oh no, get the lid back on that can before the worms get out!!!!  
Sorry, folks, it's holiday season fatigue combined with Forum Fever. Anyway, we all know the black ones sound the best. And it's all in the hands.
Happy holidays to all! |
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Fred Shannon
From:
Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 6:03 pm
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I have to wonder how soon after the first electronic tuners came out did you folks "realize there was such a thing as CABINET DROP"?
phred |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 23 Dec 2007 6:20 pm
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Put three compensator rods on the guitar and the problem is solved.I have put them on three different guitars and they worked for me.As far as pro's go a lot of their guitars have many compensators on them.
Check the nylon tuners and see how many have black or red ends. these are usually compensators. |
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Colin Mclean
From:
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 10:15 am
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Well I'll tell you what...I've only been at the steel for a few months now, but I noticed a little cabinet drop on my guitar pretty early on. It's not bad at all though, and the guitar I play is a Carter Starter. If it's a bigger problem on anything that costs more than $800 then I would say that manufacturer needs to re-engineer their product.
I'm not saying I can build a better steel, heck when I look at the undercarriages of some of your guitars here, my head starts to spin. Just sayin' if an $800 guitar doesn't do it that bad, well...
So maybe some re-engineering per se is not necessarily in order, but just some final tweaking, such as these compensator rods you speak of. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 1:03 pm
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A = 440 hertz
A# = 466.164 hertz
26.164 is the difference, in hertz, between A and A#
There are 100 cents between A and A# (correct?)
5 cents is 1/20th of the difference between A and A#
26.164 divided by 20 = 1.308 hertz.
In a blind taste test, I'm not sure that I could hear the difference between 440 and 441.308! But my tuner shows me it's there. I use Jeff's tuning chart on my Kline U-12, and it does sound in tune. Just sayin.'
BTW, I don't know if my calculations are correct. Or if my data is even correct! Just surfed up some stuff on a piano tuner site. |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 1:13 pm
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How about some of you pro players chiming in on how many compensators you use ?
How about Mullen and Emmons and Zum and the other builders, does your company install compensators if ordered ? Just wondering out in the hinterlands.......
Old Bud |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 2:56 pm
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Man, this thread has taken an interesting turn in some spots, relating more to other tuning principles than the initial cab drop question. To get it back:
Willis, my Franklin is the only guitar I have that has compensators. Their original application was to keep dropped pitches from returning out of tune. (When a string is raised AND lowered, the lowers typically don't come back right.) My Emmons and Sho-Bud do not have them. I don't believe "compensator" is (or should be) the proper term for a device that counteracts cabinet drop. Cabinet drop is the drop of pitch on strings NOT engaged by the pedals you are using at the time. When the overall tension of the guitar is increased by raising pitch on string(s), other strings go flat. When the tension is lessened by lowering pitch on string(s), the others sharpen a bit. THAT is the cab drop factor. I'm not sure what the term is for the design that brings the rest of the guitar sharp to fight the physics of increased string tension. Perhaps someone else can enlighten us on that.
I have played only one guitar that had zero cabinet movement, it was an older Sierra that belonged to the sound girl at the Nashville Palace back in the late '80's. I thought I was hearing none, didn't believe it, and hooked it up to the strobe tuner to see. There was zero. I was impressed.
_________________
Mikey D... H.S.P.
Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
http://www.steelharp.com
http://www.thesessionplayers.com/douchette.html
(other things you can ask about here)
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o54/Steelharp/ |
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 3:03 pm
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| Fred Shannon wrote: |
I have to wonder how soon after the first electronic tuners came out did you folks "realize there was such a thing as CABINET DROP"?
phred |
I am with Fred on this one.
I wonder how many can really hear any decernable amount of drop when they play
alone or with others?...not saying that you cant...just that I have never really known too many that could before electronic tuners became popular.
Yes I can "see"the diference. But I can not alaways hear what I see to the point that it bothers me or anyone else in the band. Just my 2cents and thats all its worth!
God Bless us, everyone!
_________________
Twang to the bone! |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 3:43 pm
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Larry, that's what I was trying to point out in my post. 5 cents is very little! I know that I've read somewhere that the human ear cannot detect that small a difference. Electronic tuners have gotten everybody nervous.
When I think about "cabinet drop," I often wonder where it comes from. And I suspect that it comes from different things on different guitars. The material that modern bodies are made of is extremely tough. I really don't think that flexing is that much to blame. I think most problems are with the mechanical aspects of the guitar. The inter-play between parts. Where I work, the bodies are held to 1/1000th specs. The machined parts to 1/10,000th. I don't believe that the forces involved will deflect a cross-shaft, or a 3+", 1/2 " steel axle in the changer. But if you've got 5 thousandths play here, and another 5 thousandths there, this stuff adds up. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 5:14 pm
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I believe that Buddy can!
And I am sure there are some others who can as well. I just cant help but wonder how many can really hear it if they didnt "see it" on there electronic tuner.
Not saying it does not exsist. Just wondering how noticeable it is to the average player with a steel that has a small amount of drop ( average)
...ok...now I am up to my three cents worth and I have over spent my buget on this one. I'll leave the rest to you folks!
Merry Xmas to all!
_________________
Twang to the bone! |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 24 Dec 2007 5:46 pm
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ALL RIGHT That does it!!!!
You Kids settle down right NOW!!
Or I'll turn this car around and
we will go back home.
Ken
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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