"Importance" of volume

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

I sat in with a modern country band, with a lead player who can play like Stevie Ray Vaughn if the music calls for it.
We played at a high volume (not ear splitting but way higher than a typical gig) and my steel was singing!
I just could NOT get that sound out of it at lower volume...and of course, it affected (positively) the way I played as well.
For the record I play through a Steel King, which itself breaks up just a tiny bit at high volume, especially if you crank the predrive volume...and my regular stomp boxes, which I used sparingly.
So, it seems I have two musical personalities....
a quiet, trying-to-play-accurate licks (but probably boring) style and an exciting (at least for me) style facilitated by high volume.
Anyone else experience the difference?

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I'm really not into volume much, although as a child of the 60's I've certainly played in situations that were way too loud but still really good. Now days I find that too much exposure to high volume, whether playing or just listening, causes my nervous system to kick into overdrive, making me tense up. Consequently I play way better if the band is not turned up to 11. Luckily my hearing is still pretty good after years of abuse.

One thing I've noticed lately, is the loudest bands I play with are the old guys with hearing loss, or the ones with players who insist on wearing earplugs. Confused

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well you'll find more "quiet people" intolerant of high volume than you will "loud people" being intolerant of low volume.

I'm tolerant of both, tending toward louder is better. You know, the old "Buck Owens" Screaming Twins sound, 40 years ago.

I've had people come up to me and tell me that they couldn't talk to each other while the band I was in was playing.

I told them to go home and talk there.

Many more times I had been told that the band or my instrument wasn't loud enough.

I told them to sit closer, cause I didn't want to get fired for playing as loud as they thought I should.

You can't please everyone, as Ricky Nelson said...

Smile

EJL/HFLE

Andy Sandoval · From: Bakersfield, California, USA

I don't believe in "the louder the better" approach to playin music. I've been to places where the band played too loud for the acoustics and just sounded distorted and with a sound guy sittin right there listenin too, what's up with that? I like a well balanced sound where each instrument can be heard and loud enough to take advantage of the acoustics without havin to wear ear plugs. The fact that your even havin to wear ear plugs should tell you something. Sometimes It just seems to be a contest between band members to see who can drown out who.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Twayn Williams · From: Portland, OR

Most amps, but especially Fenders, have a pair of "sweet" spots in volume where they just sound right. On a BF Fender, it's at 3 and 6. At 3 you get the pure clean tone with enough volume to make the speaker start to work correctly. At 6, you're right on the break-up spot, where digging in will crunch up and laying back will clean up. These numbers are for a Strat going into input 1. For humbuckers and PSG's, you'll get close to the same results going into input 2, though the breakup might happen a bit sooner, say around 5.

I play through a little 15 watt Princeton Recording amp and have been told I'm louder than the rest of the band -- and this includes a B-3 player and a guitar player going through a Marshall JCM 800 combo!
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Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

I have a kind of opposite problem... I play a LOT with unamplified acoustic musicians and unamplified singers. I have to keep the volume DOWN, but try to get a full tone anyway. It's really challenging.
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Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

Let me expand just a little on what I'm trying to convey.
I found by playing at a level....I'll say about 50% louder than normal....by no means earplugs volume, but way louder than what you could get away with at a typical VFW type hall gig....my steel was getting just a bit of crunch and just a bit of extra sustain-feedback from the volume level itself.
I was able to play licks and a style I could not ordinarily get away with...and it sounded good!
So, for example, if the band was playing the exact same song at a normal "quiet" level, I don't see how we could put the same energy into it....it would just sound different.
(don't forget, I'm talking new country stuff)

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Remember:

With no volume, no one CAN hear you. With too much volume, no one WANTS to hear you.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

joe long · From: San Antonio, Texas

Tony, I believe I know what you are talking about. I know that I always enjoyed playing when I could push on the volume a little. My steel sounded entirely different from a low volume setting.

C. Christofferson · Posted 2 Dec 2007 8:30 pm

Knowin that this wasn't a 'seeking suggestions' thread I hte to get sugestie, besides , this wouldnt work (if it worked at all) on an open back amp...but the possibility is there of physically muffling the speakers with something like a thick acoustic 'grill cloth' across the front of the speakers,, Or remove the speaker, put some material across the empty opening, with a breather hole, thn replace the speaker over it,,,problem might be in muffling the volume would probly play havoc with E.Q.

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Eric, since you live within a mile of me, shall I turn my amp right up and you can see whether you can hear it ? Laughing

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

It's really annoying to me to get a great tone, but at a volume that nobody can hear. Obviously it depends on the playing situation, but to me there are a lot of different "great" tones. At the risk of sounding 14 years old, I'd say I prefer to have more volume to work with than is needed, and within that I can find a tone, with a good preamp, line feed from a little abused amp or a modeler.

I prefer to have the capacity to generate exactly the same tones with an acoustic trio as with a six-piece bar band. I like my 1200 watt power amp & my 500 watt SWR bass amp, if the drummer wants to play munchies I'll play some gol-durn munchies.... Devil

At the age of 49 my hearing tests out fine, I sure don't know why. Very Happy

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

There is no substitute for the power and sustain of a loud amp, BUT.

That didn't stop me from turning
completely acoustic for several years.
My brain and ears said enough noise.

Now I occasionally play a bit louder,
but prefer tranquil levels and a good band
that plays well at ANY level.
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Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Tony Palmer · From: St Augustine,FL

More on the point I'm trying to make:
1)I don't think the amp would react the same at high volume but with muffled speakers...there was a tiny bit of feedback happening that created more sustain than I usually get--would that happen if the speakers were covered someway?
2)Again...I'm not talking super loud volume!!! Just what I describe as 50% louder than a typical hall gig.....and ok, maybe a volume you might not sit in the first row to hear but the fourth or fifth is fine, to make an analogy.
3)Lastly, the question I was really getting at, if what I experienced is correct, then is it possible to play new country at medium volume and still make it sound "right"?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I believe there is a sheer volume factor in tonality and how the music feels while I'm playing. I'm not talking about ear-splitting volume, but there are a lot of psychoacoustic effects revolving around volume.

For me, the trick is to get enough volume for each instrument to give it appropriate presence in the mix, but without getting all muddled up, overloading the room acoustics, and so on.

The other thing is that all this stuff is highly nonlinear and room-dependent - not to mention very subjective and dictated by taste. So there are no simple scaling factors, and every situation has to be judged on its own merits at the time. The ears must be the final judge, so it's a good idea to have a good set. This, of course, suggests reasonable temperance. Wink

I think any music can be played at a "reasonable" volume and sound right. Of course, I have sometimes forsaken that notion and pinned everybody to the back wall with a wall of sound. Oh, well. Laughing

Hey, one other thing. I think the frequency distribution of power/volume matters a lot here. The ears are very sensitive to loud, annoying, and distorted high-end, so if that's overdone, it can get downright annoying even if the overall volume is reasonable. I've heard some fairly loud shows that were OK, and some not-so-loud shows that were not.

Opinions, naturally.

David Doggett · Posted 3 Dec 2007 9:10 am

Tony, you are raising several issues. Most amps have a volume range somewhere toward the middle or top where they sound best. For most tube amps it is more toward the top, but for most solid state amps it seems to be more toward the middle. Especially for tube amps, the right spot is completely different for steel and regular guitar (unless you are playing overdriven rock/blues on steel). But you are using a solid state amp, so we wont go into that.

If your amp's best sound is louder than you want, there are several ways to cut the volume. The simplest way is to have an attenuator in the speaker wire between the amp and speaker. Some amps these days come with these built in, and you can also buy them separate. Some attenuators have two or more click stops for different volume levels, others have a continuous dial. The main issue is whether the attenuator has flat EQ response at all volume levels, so that it doesn't change the optimum tone of the amp. Most claim they are flat, but who knows. This issue is a little complicated by the fact that our ears hear differently at different volume levels. So even if the attenuator measured flat EQ at all volumes, we might not hear it that way. It might be necessary to have some tone adjustment ability of the attenuator similar to the old "Loudness" controls on home stereos that adjust the EQ as the volume changes.

Using an attenuator is much more practical than trying to baffle speakers. But an attenuator only addresses optimum amp tone. Speakers also have a volume range where they sound best. People who are into distortion and overdrive may want speakers to break up a little. People who want clean don't. But even for clean, low wattage speakers sound better at low volumes, and high wattage speakers sound their best at higher volumes. If your amp has a high wattage speaker, and you want something less than high volume, maybe there is some way to muffle or baffle the speaker. But I can't imagine how that would be done without drastically affecting the EQ and tone. I would think that is not a simple problem.

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

C. Christofferson · Posted 3 Dec 2007 10:08 pm

A very good elctronics repairman once diagrammed me this option which I used alot with good sounding results. It's a cable which allows the final speaker signal of a guitar amp to be run into a line-in mixer channel input. So it carries the real sound of the amp and not just a line out of the amp. In addition, if you disconnect the speaker, bridge across the speaker plus & minus with an 8ohm resistor to mimic the speaker load, you then get the warm amp sound through the board only, then choose your volume. Might be worth a try. I dont know the resistor values but...Edit: R1 color code is gold-orange-black-brown (not g,red,b,b) & R2 color code is gold-red-black-brown.

Here is a good thread on 'feedback'...

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/008502.html

p.s. that speaker load resistor can get hot so be careful.

***

sonbone · From: Waxahachie, TX

The resistors are 1K (1000 ohms) in the above example.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Seems like that plug might get pretty hot. Whoa!

Aled Rhys Jones · From: Berkeley, CA

I've seen guitarists use things like the THD Hotplate attenuator to get valve amps sounding the way they would like. Not sure about using with transistor amps though.
http://www.thdelectronics.com/products/hotplate.htm

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