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Topic: Curious and would like to know. |
Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 1:28 pm |
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Is there anyone still playing what I call a True Push/Pull system?
By the above, I mean "Solid Fingers" which lends to there being only "ONE" pivot point. (finger on the axle shaft). |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 2:26 pm
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Yes.
clickHEREto hear what my Denley sounds like |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 3:37 pm
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Wow! Richard, A long time since I've seen one of those. Nice!
Mine at the start of build was probably around 1969
Notice also, the crack.... Only wish George was still making them.. |
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KENNY KRUPNICK
From:
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 6:13 pm
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| Guitar by George E. Sell. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 7:06 pm
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| Hi Kenny, yes! Wow! Surprised to hear someone mention his name.. Do you know George? |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 7:21 pm
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Don, I believe you're describing what's known as a "Pull Release" system..
Push-Pull has ALWAYS been the designator for the Emmons system.. See this..
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KENNY KRUPNICK
From:
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 7:29 pm
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Hi Don, I remember seeing the George E. Sell guitar in Winnie Winstons book.  |
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Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 7:37 pm
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Hi Don: When I saw the GES guitar I had to call George. He said hello and do you remember Pipers?
George said he still has photographs of your guitar
and he built Ray Nash's guitar about the same time as yours.1996.
George sends his best to you
Keep on pikin
Alvin |
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Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 7:43 pm
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HI Don:
I made an error on the date, Your date is correct.
Alvin |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 8:19 pm
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Hi Alvin, I sure do remember Pipers. What a great time we had. Think I sat in on Earl Saxton's steel. The last time there with George and Betty.
Only thing is, be sure and tell George that time does fly past us. I sold Ray Nash's Steel for him, in 1983 after he quit playing music.. And Ray's was built around the same time as mine, but it was back way, way before that. Tell George around 1968 1970. Couldn't have been any later than that, because I moved shortly after that, and had been playing it for a couple of years. But that's ok.
I'm so glad to hear that he's ok. And, that he and Betty got to see us on Rt. 100 in (I think it was) West Chester. Forget the name of the place, he'll probably know.
I think Walt Rutledge's was probably the last steel he built. To my knowledge it was. Although I'm not certain.
Give George our Love & Hugs from the family. And thanks so much for getting in touch. Don
Last edited by Don Brown, Sr. on 2 Dec 2007 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 8:26 pm
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Hi Kenny, Yes! That is Earl Saxton and his Steel that was used in Winnie Winston's book. Small world huh!  Thanks for the reply.. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 2 Dec 2007 8:40 pm
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Bas, No, what I'm meaning is this:
This, is what I still call a True Push Pull system. No split fingers, push to lower and pull to raise. Never ever, in all of the years of playing was there ever once a tuning problem, or strings not returning in tune. I know some may probably think I'm exagerating but it's simply a true fact. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 2:03 am
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Don, I believe you're describing what's known as a "Pull Release" system..
It's the same system as on the SINGLE neck ShoBud-Fender. |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 3:41 am
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Hi Don,
The pull/release changer is still the simplest system around. And it works! It does have shortcomings like trying to balance a finger in a central position for a string that's both raised and lowered. I've built several guitars like this and they all worked fine. Some of the forum members might remember a book I wrote several years ago on building your own steel. I sold several hundred of these books around the globe and I know quite a few guitars were built from it. My first pedal steel I built around 1963 from generally copying from our steel players D10 ShoBud. That was a pull/release guitar. I gigged with that guitar for over 30 years 2-3 nights a week. Never had to think too much about tuning problems. I'm in the process of rebuilding that guitar right now with different mechanics underneath. Regular bellcranks don't seem to be the right way with these guitars. An updated version of the flat plates like the older ZBs seems to me the way to go. It has to do mainly with the return springs and stops and how to set this up to be accurate, positive and easy to adjust or change copendents. I should be done in a couple of weeks and I'll post some pics of how it works.
Mac |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 9:39 am
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Hi Mac, when you said it was a problem balancing the strings to return center for the ones that had to both, Raise and Lower.
"Not at all" This is why I had said, George Sells, was SO FAR ahead in his engineering aspects, (Remember this was back in 1968 era) On his steels, a string absolutely had to return to exactly where it had been, regardless of whether it did both, one or the other.
He used Bell Cranks, and rods that Pull the fingers, as well as Push the fingers. No rivets to have to pivot on, and no two or three parts rubbing against one another.
Please don't take what I'm saying as putting others or their instruments down. Not at all. I'm simply stating what is fact, in answer to your reply. And quite naturally, I believe everyone should get credit where credit is due them for their outstanding achievements.
I'm not advertising for him, because he's no longer making them.
Making steels was (I believe) to George, nothing more than what he considered to be his hobby. But it was one he did with pure love for the instrument, and he was determined to overcome the shortcomings (as he found them to be) at the time. And he did just that. The man is simply (in my opinion) a genius.
Mac, I'd love seeing pictures when you're finished with it.
Items that appear out of alignment, is simply due to my poor camera shooting. |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 12:16 pm
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Bas, I don't think any other quitar has a system quite like George's. Or I should say, I've never yet seem any others with it. Yes, I've seen the solid fingers, but exactly as Mac were saying. They usually either raised or lowered a string. This setup does both and HAS to return true.
Yes! It's possibly outdated, but only in terms of me not having up from the four I have, to 8 or 9 knees installed, etc. But as I see it, musical notation, has never increased nor decreased. Any note still remains a tone, and other than all of the many extras being simply a convenience, those same notes and cords are still there. You just have to work harder to get to them..
I'd rather sacrifice convenience for a steel that plays true and stays that way, over convenience. I don't miss leaving the tuning wrench in the seat at all. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 12:41 pm
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| Yes, I know what it's like using a limited range copedent, My Fender 1000 only has single raise and lower on each string..Makes you work a little harder to get "Those" changes..methinks.. |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 2:20 pm
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The guitars I've built in the past that were pull/release used bellcranks like most of the present day all pull guitars. What I meant I guess about balancing the single piece finger was that with all pull guitars each finger has the return spring. On my guitars the return springs were on the crossrods or the knee levers rather than on the fingers. You're right though about them staying in tune. Way less "adjustments" to fiddle with. Just the one stop screw per finger to set the lower pitch range. And the raise pitch with the nylon fine tuner. Of course on my guitars anyway you had to leave the raise nylon tuner back far enough to allow the finger to go back to the stop screw for one that went both ways. Not a big deal once you get them set right....and they would stay that way pretty much forever. I like your analogy of "staying in tune" rather than the "convenience" of changing things around frequently. After all, actually playing the music we love on the instrument is paramount in the end.
Mac |
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Don Brown, Sr.
From:
New Jersey
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 3:05 pm
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| Mac, if I can get a picture of the raise tuners, I'll post it. They aren't nylon, they are stainless and thread through a deeply threaded block. At the ends, a short compression spring, with a nut on it, prevents the nut from turning, while you screw the adjusters in or out. In order to allow more raise, or less raise. The long screws themselves, don't move at all with the finger. Neat huh? |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 3:20 pm
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| The long screws, do they go right through the finger and the nut and spring is on the inside? I can see if this is done you could adjust the raise travel from the end by screwing the adjuster in or out which is a cool idea. I suppose by doing this you alleviate the problem of setting the bellcrank travel as the "raise stop". I'm just thinking on this, for instance the B-C# on the A pedal. The travel distance is different for the 5th string vs the 10th string. I suppose you'd have to set the adjusting screws so the maximum travel one would do the stopping. Ain't it crazy how many ways there are do do essentially the same thing! |
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Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 5:29 pm
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Hi Don and all Forum viewers. I will be getting together with George in a few days and have him
over here to look at this discussion and get back
to you
If anyone has any questions for George I will be
glad pass them along.
Keep on pikin
Alvin |
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Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 5:30 pm
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Hi Don and all Forum viewers. I will be getting together with George in a few days and have him
over here to look at this discussion and get back
to you
If anyone has any questions for George I will be
glad pass them along.
Keep on pikin
Alvin |
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Alvin Sydnor
From:
Boothwyn, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2007 5:30 pm
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Hi Don and all Forum viewers. I will be getting together with George in a few days and have him
over here to look at this discussion and get back
to you
If anyone has any questions for George I will be
glad pass them along.
Keep on pikin
Alvin |
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