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Topic: Tungsten changer fingers |
Frank Parish
From:
Nashville,Tn. USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 4:49 am |
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| This is out of my league here and I want to ask the folks here that have experience in this kind of metal. A good machinist might know about this. I guy in a jewelry store told me about Tungsten rings that won't ever scratch or scar. I'm wondering if anybody here would know about the tonal qualities to be had if we had this stuff for our changer fingers? It may sound dead and awful to the ears but if I don't ask I won't know. It seems there should be some serious sustain in this metal at the very least but has anybody here experimented with it yet? I know the old Sho-Buds had the pot metal and it's soft stuff and will wear out easily but the tone in those fingers was mighty good. What about something this hard for changer fingers. If not then what about bellcranks, pull rods, everything else underneath the guitar? |
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John Fabian
From:
Mesquite, Texas USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 7:06 am
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Parts would be expensive because of the special tools and techniques needed to fabricate parts from this material.
Generally, the harder the control finger material, the brighter a guitar will be. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 7:26 am
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What John Fabian says is why I'm skeptical of the current trend toward harder metal changer fingers.
Tone preferences are entirely subjective, of course, but I personally have never heard a steel guitar that I felt needed to sound brighter. I've heard (and owned) steels that I wished didn't sound quite as bright. (See the "tone control" thread in Electronics.)
Sustain may be a different issue. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 7:44 am
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Brint, I getcha.
It is sustain I am after. You builders out there, what material offers the best sustain. I don't know that there is, I just wanted to make sure.
I see where one builder ( the brand escapes me) uses stainless steel for the fingers.
In your research, does stainless give more sustain? |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 7:58 am
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Would it be possible to offer a replaceable cap on a changer finger and still get the sustain? Maybe it could just intermesh with the changer finger or maybe it would have to be attached. Users could then try different materials to get different sounds or quickly replace worn ones.
Greg |
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Bob Knight
From:
Bowling Green KY
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 8:58 am
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
Would it be possible to offer a replaceable cap on a changer finger and still get the sustain? Maybe it could just intermesh with the changer finger or maybe it would have to be attached. Users could then try different materials to get different sounds or quickly replace worn ones.
Greg |
ZB had that option, and it seemed to work quite well. |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 11:31 am
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| Couldn't a brighter tone be controled with better tone controls or equalization. I'd rather have to deal with brighter tone than sandin out grooved fingers every time I change strings. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 11:37 am
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| Quote: |
It is sustain I am after. You builders out there, what material offers the best sustain. ...
I see where one builder ( the brand escapes me) uses stainless steel for the fingers.
In your research, does stainless give more sustain? |
From my experience, while the finger contributes to the sustain, it's really more responsible for the tone, especially its shape and how much stuff is attached to it. The rigidity of the overall guitar is where the sustain is and by that I mean, are the vibrations damped by the "soft" materials and/or the fit up. The tone comes from the vibration path from the string through the finger, axle and pillow block to the guitar body, with all of its attachments, then back to the string and how well they all vibrate and couple to each other.
I'm not a big fan of the lower alloys of stainless, like 303 and 304. They're relatively inexpensive, kind of unfriendly to work with and clunky sounding. Things get more interesting with the "upper" alloys (even though I haven't had a lot of experience with all of the huge array of possibilities). The stuff I'm the most interested in is grade 9 titanium, ti 6,4. It's very expensive and very unfriendly to work with, but very musical. Inconel 718 is also pretty interesting.
Back to affordable, 6061 T6 aluminum is affordable, very friendly to work with, sounds good and when it wears out, easily replaceable. The same with silicon bronze. If you wanted something much harder and you plan on polishing it and keeping it oiled, so it never rusts, tool steel is a possibility and readily available. Machine it then have it hardened. |
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Tony Smart
From:
Harlow. Essex. England
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 2:51 pm
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What's the view on anodised Ali. fingers?
I think Mullen use them. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 3:26 pm
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Chas, your comment is very interesting! But I wonder where the law of "diminishing returns" kicks in. Might not the difference between good stainless steel and titanium be virtually imperceptible? They're both pretty darn hard!
Sometimes that last little 1% is impossible to achieve at anything other than a huge cost, and no one may be able to hear the difference!
Aircraft aluminum seems to have proven itself to be very "musical." And the complaint of having to resurface the fingers every time strings are changed is an exaggeration IMO. I had to resurface the third string finger once in 15 years of playin' my Kline 5 nights a week. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 4:57 pm
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Greg,s idea on the caps still intrest me. I discussed it with a builder a while back, he didn't like the idea. I saw stainless tywraps the other day,that were the right size, I may try a set to see how it effects the sound/tone. It would be a great fix for deep grooved changers.
John Fabian,Chas smith... What is your take on this idea?
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 7:25 pm
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John, no argument. It would probably come down to bragging rights. I do think that if the fingers were shaped like either Bigsbys or Emmons there would be a noticeable improvement. Tom Morrel used to talk about his T-10 and how the neck with the fingers sounded better than the other 2.
The reason I believe that is because I did an experiment with a pawn shop 12-string (its now a 10-string)
where I made a titanium bridge/rod/ring with a bunch of small ti rods that extend down into the sound hole. The idea was to add resonance/reverb to the guitar. It actually works too well and can get muddy.
The reason I think that the rigidity of the guitar is paramount is this one:
The bridge and nut on the bass neck are both ti rods, however the changer fingers, on the 12 string neck, are from a Sho-Bud "birdcage" and the rollers are 6061 T6.
The guitar has optimum sustain, however, it comes with a "price", besides the obvious cost. I tend to be kind of a sloppy player and on my Sho-Bud, I can get away with it, on the other hand, now that I think of it, nobody calls me anymore. Couldn't be my playing, maybe its my personality, anyway, on the titanium framed guitar, it "hears" everything. I just played it on a concert and I had to really watch my technique, but it sounded fabulous.
Bill, stainless tywraps????? you're not serious.... |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 27 Nov 2007 4:49 am
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Chas,
Maybe I should have elaborated more....the ss tywraps are 5/16 wide X aprox 1/32 thick, to be used as material,cut to length and shaped to fit over the changer finger under the string. I remember a post where someone had used (I don't remember what material)for a similar fix, and stated it worked ok,maybe it was a "leg pull"looked like plastic.
Bill
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2007 4:31 pm
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| Bill, I don't want to say that its not going to work and then find out that it was the solution to end all solutions, but my sense is that its another medium that will have a less than ideal fit up for the vibration to pass through. Of course you can always try it and if it doesn't work, remove it. |
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