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Topic: Lowering Changer on Both Ends |
Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 12:59 pm |
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I was thinking about how to make a changer that raises and lowers. It seems like you would need to get the leverage just right no matter how you did it.
But what about putting a changer on both ends? One end lowers and one end raises. Not sure about how to tune the strings yet but tuning the pulls would be a matter of turning a screw to prevent the changer finger from traveling too far.
What do you think?
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 1:06 pm
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Gary,isn't that how an Anapeg works?
Stu
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 1:08 pm
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I have no idea. Never really seen one.
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 1:16 pm
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Gary, that's how the Jackson guitars work. The raises are done in the 'normal' end and the lowers are done at the keyhead end.
That works great for Jackson . Another story would be for us to make it...You would at least need the special tuning pegs that turn with the lowering action. Not worth the hassle for a first time.
I recommend you make a regular changer first time around...the one with the raise/lower scissors attached to the aluminum finger. This worked well for me, even with my very limited tool supply. |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 1:20 pm
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Bent, do you have any drawings of what you made? I'm pretty sure I can cut it but I don't want to wast material with trial and error parts.
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Ron !
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 2:14 pm
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Gary
I have some photos. How about I email you those and a description and some measurements of the parts tomorrow? |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Bobby Bowman
From:
Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 4:19 pm double changer
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Gary,
Myself and Earl Fisher designed a double changer guitar about 5 years ago. We were going to call it "The American Steel". We actually produced 3 or 4 prototypes and a couple of production models. I still have a SD-10 that I have not finished yet.
As far as I can remember, double changer guitars have been made by several people including Sho-Bud and BMI, as well as some others.
BB
_________________
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 4:22 pm
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Would you mind sending me some pictures? Or maybe posting them on the Forum?
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 6:48 pm
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Hi folks...
Here's a couple of pictures of the double changer guitars that I build. This is just the lowering end of course. The raise end is just the old single piece finger. It works for me!
Mac
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 6:54 pm
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Thanks, Mac. I'd really like to see more photos of that guitar, or any others you've built. I think I could build that. I plan to try building a pedal steel soon. I'd like to go into it with as much info as I can.
Right now, I think I'm leaning toward the double changer variety. I hadn't considered using a full key head like your guitar.
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 8:28 pm
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Hi Gary,
Here's the same under picture with a few captions that'll maybe show the various parts of the lowering mechanism. I've built I think 7 guitars like this. I drew a whole book of drawings and made quite a few test pieces before I came up with a system that I could build and that worked right. There's a few advantages and some disadvantages to this system. First...I still like the single piece finger(like the old pull/release changers)as I think the sustain is better. Of course the drawback to them is the slop and balancing the finger in the middle for a string that both raises and lowers. So by having only pulls at the right hand end this problem is gone. Also the lowering fingers on my guitars at the left end are one piece as well so I think the sustain is better there also rather than the standard "rollers and axle". I also discovered that having the two changers has pretty much eliminated intonation problems when a lower and a raise is done on the same string. Now for the bad part... it's a bit of a pain to change strings, have to feed them over the finger and under the little rollers. You almost need pliers to grab the string to get it to the tuning peg. And you can also see in the picture that having all that junk right where your cross rods for the pedals are means you have to connect the pedal crossrods to a bellcrank arrangement further along on the guitar. Oh, well, back to the drawing board.
Talk to you later,
Cheers,
Mac
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Bobby Bowman
From:
Cypress, Texas, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 9:06 pm double changers
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Though there are several ways to design/engineer, I, after trying these several methods, ended up with a true push and pull system,,,single finger quadruple pulls (raises) on one end and the single finger triple pushes (lowers) on the other end with additional tunable split tuning features from either direction of the string pitch changes.
Maybe one day, we'll put it up on the "front burner" again. It was a really great playing, sounding, stay in tune guitar with unbelievable sustain all the way up the 25" scale. We never tried the keyed version, which may be a good way to go. We stayed keyless.
There is a picture of one one of the D-10 prototypes on my website. It's the bright yellow and black one.
BB
www.bobbybowman.com
_________________
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 9:10 pm
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Bobby, that would be so much simpler than what I was imagining. By the way, how are you doing? Haven't seen you for a couple of years I think.
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Nov 2007 10:36 pm
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Mac, does your lowering end push or pull?
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Mac Knowles
From:
Almonte,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 26 Nov 2007 3:47 am
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It's all pull....triple raises at one end, triple lowers at the left end.
Mac |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2007 9:41 pm
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Does anyone else have ideas on this?
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Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 28 Nov 2007 5:06 am
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Didn't Emmons first patent drawing show a separate raise on one end, lower on the other? I'll look for that dwg. later (don't have time now)
BF
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2007 7:59 am
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| Hey Gary - try a Google patent search for "pedal steel guitar". You come up with some interesting stuff. |
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Sonny Jenkins
From:
Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
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Posted 28 Nov 2007 9:51 am
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| Don't the BMI keyless still raise from bridge end and lower from keyless end??? |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2007 10:04 am
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| Bigsby. But that system was closer to the earliest type of Scruggs' tuners that were levers on the peghead that deflected the strings. |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2007 2:05 pm
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Bent, that second one is a Fingertip. Applied for in 1966. They started making basket/barrel guitars in 1967. I wonder why they were filed so late in the guitars life? Maybe because Miller, and others, were copying the design?
BTW, thanks for finding that, as I'm going to tear apart and restore a F-tip D-10 soon. Those drawings will be invaluable to me! |
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