Why no volume and tone control on pedal steels?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I thought I'd start a new thread - the thoughts below were clipped out of my post on the orange drop cap thread and some things added for clarity:

I've always noticed a very subtle difference between guitar-installed volume/tone circuits and outboard ones, like volume pedals or impedance matchers. It's not something noticed as much in a band context unless the player uses them but there is a difference - and it seems as if most steel players don't adjust tone while playing at all.

Moving a guitar volume control has a tonal affect that a volume pedal does not - a slight loss of highs. In fact, caps are often installed on six-strings to compensate...but I like the effect of the control and don't use the cap. This is one reason I just do not understand the lack of volume and especially tone controls on pedal steels. Even if I didn't need impedance matching I'd use my Steeldriver II just for the tone control. When I play my Fenders I ride the controls constantly, just like on a 6-string...with my GFI Ultra, I have to ride them on the Steeldriver, and there's a difference to the sound/effect (plus it's far less conveniently positioned).

I remember my MSA Classic had controls - I wonder why they essentially disappeared from pedal steel? To me, it cripples the instrument. A volume control may seem redundant if you use a pedal, but to repeat - there is a tonal effect as well. And the lack of a tone control to me is like cutting off a finger or two...
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Paul Frank Bloomfield · From: Greece

Hallo all !
My old ZB D-10 has a volume and tone control mounted
on the end plate and an on/off switch on the pickup
selector plate (why an on/off switch beats me !).
I never use these controls as they are governed by
my amp settings.
Frank Bloomfield. Corfu

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Jim, I feel like tone controls are not needed on a pedal steel guitar. That said, I currently own 2 PSG’s that have them, my Emmons P/P and my Fessenden D-10. I don’t touch them, I don’t see any need to reduce the highs, it’s counter-productive. In order to be heard in a band situation, you NEED highs. If I adjust my amp so that I sound too treble at home practicing, then I know it will sound good when playing with a group. Not enough treble, and it turns to mud. And, there is quite a bit of tone control available by adjusting the location of the picking hand, closer to the bridge=more treble, away from the bridge=less.

Maybe this leads to another question; why do most guitar players aim for a muddy, dull tone? Go to any blues jam, nearly every guitar player will have the same muddy tone. Rarely do you hear someone with clear highs and full lows. Country guitar players seem to use a wider range of tones. My opinion, of course.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

I was wondering the same thing?Sometimes I like to cut some of the highs and get an older tone,and I also don't want to do it at the amp,it's a different sound.I also like to cut highs from my steel while using a blues driver,again it's not the same when you cut it at the amp. Shocked

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I'm with Jim, I can't see any reason NOT to have a tone control on a steel.

Especially one with a bypass switch, as on my Super Pro. When I play that guitar, I do in fact make use of the tone control, depending on the song--sometimes I bypass it, sometimes have it in but full up, which gives a slight but noticeable treble rolloff, sometimes turned down a bit more. I miss having that capability when I play my other steels, none of which have tone controls.

My amp is generally farther from me than I can reach from my position seated at the steel, so changing the amp settings is considerably less convenient, and anyway, as Jim says, the effect is different.

A great many six-string players, probably most, never use the tone controls on their guitars, yet manufacturers still include them for those who want to use them. Why should steels be different? Parts for a tone control and bypass switch are cheap; wiring is simple; end plate mounting isn't tricky.

George McLellan · From: Duluth, MN USA

My Willy comes with a tone control and I had Keith Hilton make an "outboard" volume control that clips onto the leg. I use the same amp(s) for both six string and steel. I set the amp(s) for the six string guitar and fine tune the volume and tone on my steel.

I'm sure there are many that would disagree with this set up, but it works for me.

Geo

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

I totally agree, Jim. I even considered modding my Pro~1 at one point for a tone control, but bought a Matchbox instead, which turned out to be what I needed more anyways. While I like having it, I don't really like the tone control on the Matchbox that much. I find it ok if I want to add some high end (I normally leave it at 12 o'clock) but what I'd really like to be able to do is drop the highs like a Tele's tone control.

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Actually one of the big complaints over the years with pot-based volume pedals is that they DO cut the highs. Many players (myself included) favor the non-pot pedals like the Hilton because they do NOT cut the highs. So the volume portion of your question may be addressed (and, indeed, has been for many years) by long-time use of the standard pot pedals. It doesn't address your tone control question, of course.

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

My Sho-Bud 6139 originally had onboard vol/tone controls; some previous owner removed them (and added a nice engraved "Sho-Bud 6139" plate to cover the holes).

A passive volume control will roll off highs unless bypassed with a cap. And a tone control will affect tone, whether or not it's "off". Personally, I like the effect of unbypassed volume controls more than tone controls. On a six-string, I'll just roll off the volume a bit to get the equivalent of rolling off the tone. When I rebuilt my Squier '51, I left it with the stock configuration - unbypassed volume, no tone. It's VERY flexible tonally.

And with six-string, I use a clean buffer at all times, so after the deliberate tonal issues, it stays the same downstream (I use a Prescription Electronics Germ for this). One of these days, I need to get a Matchbox or something for the pedal steel.
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1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Jim and Stu,

I agree, I'd like to have a tone control much like the old MSA's had, maybe with a small bypass switch. For me at least there are many instances where I'd use it. And changing the amp setting isn't the same.

Prior to using the HiltonVP and the BB, I used a pot pedal with a 7a matchbox and often used the tone control to cut highs on some stuff.

I love the tone in the HVP and BB, and the vari-z BB control is good, but like the amp eq it's not the same as a tone control imo.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I wouldn't want a volume control on a pedal steel. The vast majority of pedal steel players, including me, use a volume pedal. I just can't see wanting to duplicate that action on the guitar itself. It's easy enough to add a volume control if someone wants it, but I have no interest.

Tone controls cut both ways to me. It is nice to be able to dial down a bit of treble sometimes right at the guitar. But on the other hand, I have either a rack with a Tubefex or a Pod sitting right next to me most of the time, so it's no big deal to dial it down there either. I also use a Goodrich pot volume pedal, so I do get a little natural treble-cut when I back off.

I have three pedal steels with tone controls - a Zum, my old Sho Bud 6139, and a Sierra. With the Zum and Sierra, there's a switch to shunt around the tone control - a very good idea, IMO. There are times I just prefer to have the brilliance of the pickup directly wired to the output. Similarly, I also like the Fender Esquire system, which does the same thing in the lead position.

One issue with having the pots and switches is that it's easy to break them getting the guitar in and out of the case. Late at night after a long or hard gig, it's just sticking out there ready to get nailed if I'm a little bit careless. I've done that once to the switch on the Sierra. Sometimes, simple is better.

I honestly think that if the market demanded more controls, makers would put them on there.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I'm getting a volume pedal (and perhaps some sort of tone control) on my next pedal steel.

The reason for the volume control is twofold:

So you can use a wah pedal and not have to dance around with your right foot.

So you can skip the volume pedal for super lightweight gigs (especially blues or rock and roll gigs where the subtlety of the volume pedal isn't needed).

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Madison Permanent, Nashville Fingertip, many Baldwin era Shobuds had them, although my S-10 only has the split switch on the deck.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Has anyone seen the Alvino Rey YouTube, where he uses the tone control for various effects.?The tone control is just not only for tone. I think a tone control is a lot more realistic than a Wah Pedal, when boowah and making it sound like talking .The public always loved it and it helped Alvino, Speedy West, Jody Carver, me too, to get noticed by the differnt sounds they could get, outside of standard steel sounds.

It's just like the lock on a Universal, all s12 steels , and even S10 steels should have them. If a player prefers not to use it, fine, just dont use it. But leave it on for the guys that want to use it. Same as the Tone Control, if a player is fussy about it, have the builder put a bypass switch on it and turn it off. It is still there for the next guy if he buys it from you...fwiw...al. Smile

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Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Bob Kagy,Yes a bypass switch works well...that way you can pre set a tone change and hit the switch and it's wide open,once again when using a distortion device like I do It reacts differently to changes that I do from the guitar,and not after the guitar "The Amp"My Blanton guitar has a volume,and a tone pot, plus a bypass switch,another use for the volume pot is if the string on your volume pedal breaks you can work with the volume knob on the guitar,Dan Tyack makes a good point also in his situation. Laughing

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Oops! I almost for got,A friend of mine made this little box for me,It's a tone control with a bypass switch on it,and it works on all of my guitars.

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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

My Williams came with a pot-tone control. After about a month of playing with it, I decided to eliminate it.

I just cut it out of the circuit and rewired the IN and OUT wires,

I noticed a big differnce in the tone, at once. The main reason I eleiminated it was after reading many many pros & cons here on the Forum (years ago) about this very topic.

Basically, the steel's manufacturers' pot control, while seemingly apppearing as a + , actually becomes a tone blockage. IMHO. It's just another hinderance in-line for you to get to the tone you're looking for. It just gets too bassy and muddy, to me.

And the tone can be achieved, simply, with a great amp; and/or some peripheral boxes.

One box I've come across, recently, is called the
Tone Press by Barber Electronics (Parallel Compressor)

It's a compressor, sort of, but not really. It only has 3 controls: volume, blend, and sustain.

You can't get it in regular music stores. You have to order it, and it usually takes 3-4 weeks. Cost is about $150.

To me, it is just a great "box". It's subtle and rounds out your set knobs and has sustain up the the ying-yang.

It's a jewel.
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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

When I was first playing I felt the need for a tone and control and used one clipped to the leg. As I played more and became a better player I found no need for either. I am not a traditional player for the most part and use all sorts of different sounds as I play.

If you want to use a tone and volume control and your steel doesn't have one Goodrich makes a very handy gizmo called the "super sustain matchbox". It works great, clips on the leg and the battery seems to last forever. It has a bypass switch also.
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Bob

David Doggett · Posted 26 Nov 2007 12:35 am

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

David-You made a good point .
That sounds like the logical reason they stopped putting them on....al. Smile

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Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.

My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

So the manufacturers are assuming steel players are too stupid to use a bypass switch? Rolling Eyes

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Dave, my comment was intended to have a facetious tone. My point was, as I said in my previous post, most electric six-string guitarists don't use the tone controls either, but manufacturers include them anyway, for the most part. Why should it be different when it comes to steel?

As to the price-point issue, to quote my own prior post, "Parts for a tone control and bypass switch are cheap; wiring is simple; end plate mounting isn't tricky." In the context of the cost and labor of manufacturing a pedal steel guitar, including a tone control is minuscule, IMHO.

As to "one more thing to go wrong", I've used my Super Pro for 23 years and never had a problem with the tone control & bypass switch (and, as I mentioned above, I use them). The way the steel fits in the case, I've never hit the end plate-mounted controls, and they've never malfunctioned. Come to think of it, in 44 years of electric guitar (many guitars) I've never had a problem with a tone control malfunctioning in any way.

And I certainly concur that moving a pot volume pedal does affect the tone a bit. Indeed, that's why some players prefer them.

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

The point about adjusting tone when using distortion, most overdrive/distortion pedals have a tone control. When I use one, I do cut the highs, maybe 30%. That seems to be simpler, hit the pedal, and the tone is pre-set.
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Bill Moore...
my steel guitar web page

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